Official ICC 2015 CWC thread

[ZCFOutkast]

Yes, I finally found what I was looking for (to quote U2)! A fan-bleeding-tastic editorial on the 'c' word. It's quite long but so worth the read. Enjoy... EDIT: I do apologise for the copy and paste and not just supplying the link. You need to be registered and logged in to read it.Part 1 of 2

You forgot the fitting image&caption http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/825101/the-mother-of-all-myths



A glum Shaun Pollock tries to comprehend how his side botched the Duckworth-Lewis equation in Durban in 2003

 

[Badprop_za]

I disagree. The writer is basically saying no Proteas team has ever gone to the CWC with a realistic chance of winning it, therefore by definition, we've never choked, we've basically performed to our abilities with a poor performance or lapse at a crucial knock out stage.

What does a lapse in the pressurized environment of a knock out stage equate to? Choking?

Not only have we gone into a number of tournaments as favourites but we've been in strong positions to win that crucial knockout game, but have failed to convert due to making severe errors in judgement at the most crucial moment! That to me equates to choking! Donald/Klusener meeting at the centre for a cuppa? Gibbs dropping Waugh? Boucher failing to take a crucial single?

Klusener / Donald incident, first of all we should never have come that close in the semis. Klusener got us there. (As he did before the WC against NZ needing 6 off the last ball) Who choked? Donald or Klusener? Was the single really on considering in normal situations whereby the striker would have gone back into his crease due to the ball being hit back in his direction.

Gibbs dropped catch. Agree that it was a huge drop (20/20 hindsight), but we never know what would have happened afterwards. Did he dropped it due to pressure? I think not.

'03 WC - That interpretation of good ol' Duckworth / Lewis did not happen that night. That would have been the view before a ball was bowled, even before the WC. So, was the mistake really due to the situation that night? I don't think so.

Yes, there have been some serious head scratch events like in 2007. When things went south, why did we not change our approach? Typical SA way of cricket. We stick to Plan A at all cost, even if it is not working.

Barring these incidents, what about all those pressurized moments when the team / individual pulled us through? Seemingly we remember the losses more than the occasions where we won.

Did we choke against OZ when we lost the series recently 4-1? Technically according to AB we did as he deemed that we outplayed Oz.

In the 438-game, if Makhaya got bowled instead of getting the single, would we have said that SA choked on that day? Somehow I doubt it.


My opinion is that the Proteas has been unfairly labelled with the "chokers"-tag by an Oz captain and somehow we all are guilty of continuing that tag.

 

[Rusty0]

I disagree. The writer is basically saying no Proteas team has ever gone to the CWC with a realistic chance of winning it, therefore by definition, we've never choked, we've basically performed to our abilities with a poor performance or lapse at a crucial knock out stage.

What does a lapse in the pressurized environment of a knock out stage equate to? Choking?

Not only have we gone into a number of tournaments as favourites but we've been in strong positions to win that crucial knockout game, but have failed to convert due to making severe errors in judgement at the most crucial moment! That to me equates to choking! Donald/Klusener meeting at the centre for a cuppa? Gibbs dropping Waugh? Boucher failing to take a crucial single?

Agreed.
Although the Gibbs issue should be separated, thats not choking. Dropping a catch is part of the game.

Notice how Klusener was at the crease for two the most humiliating WC exits.

 

[Rusty0]

My opinion is that the Proteas has been unfairly labelled with the "chokers"-tag by an Oz captain and somehow we all are guilty of continuing that tag.

Lol your opinion is your opinion.
You're just in denial.

 

[Badprop_za]

Lol your opinion is your opinion.
You're just in denial.

Yip. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Maybe people are just too harsh on the team with the choker-tag that jumped on the bandwagon looking for moments to use it.
Denial, maybe. Or maybe looking at the bigger picture and in context.

 

[Creag]

No choking here

England 250/8 (50.0 ov)
Pakistan 252/6 (48.5 ov)
Pakistan won by 4 wickets (with 7 balls remaining)

 

[AirWolf]

@ZFC - remember our revised wager - 4 innings - no ducks and at least one fifty?

RR - 4 innings - 0 ducks, 1 century .

 

[Beavis]

Yip. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Maybe people are just too harsh on the team with the choker-tag that jumped on the bandwagon looking for moments to use it.
Denial, maybe. Or maybe looking at the bigger picture and in context.

I'm with you badprop, think a lot of us are "waiting" for the fail to label it as choking.... as mentioned we tend to forget the good moments when we pulled through (yes I know unfortunately not that well in WC)but... when we perform well it is the team and most will say its a team effort, when ever we loose it is a result of someone "choking" or a bad captain... strange.

In retrospect it is also some sort of insult saying SA choked, taking away the credit the opposing team might deserve in pressure situations.... annnyways, my opinion as well...

 

[Neoprod]

snip

A contrasting view - this is how I see our eliminations from the various tournaments we've played.

1992 - no choke / rain effed us
1996 - no choke / Brian Lara + weakness against spin effed us
1999 - yes choked / chasing 210 should be a doddle if you play anywhere near your best
2003 - no choke / just stupidity
2007 - yes choked / pressure made them bat like idiots, bowled out for 150
2011 - yes choked / go on Youtube and watch from Duminy's dismissal onward...chasing 220 this time, lost by 50

If we'd capitulated under pressure once, you could dismiss it as a random. But fully half the time?

 

[Badprop_za]

A contrasting view - this is how I see our eliminations from the various tournaments we've played.

1992 - no choke / rain effed us
1996 - no choke / Brian Lara + weakness against spin effed us
1999 - yes choked / chasing 210 should be a doddle if you play anywhere near your best
2003 - no choke / just stupidity
2007 - yes choked / pressure made them bat like idiots, bowled out for 150
2011 - yes choked / go on Youtube and watch from Duminy's dismissal onward...chasing 220 this time, lost by 50

If we'd capitulated under pressure once, you could dismiss it as a random. But fully half the time?

1999 - Agree that chasing 210 should be a doddle.
2007 - Plan A did not come work on the day.
2011 - Same thing happened against England in the group stage. Then we lost by 6 runs. Lower order not good enough on the day?

AB and # is going to decide how we will do in this WC. They are the key players. I am not 100% sure that the other batters can pull it through.

My ranking would be as follows:
1 - Oz
2 - NZ
3 - SA
4 - SL

I will not say we are favorites for this WC. Yes, we are good enough to be there or thereabouts in the end.

 

[Bighit]

AB and # is going to decide how we will do in this WC. They are the key players.

And Vern!

 

[Agent_Smith]

Just got back and am glad to see there's some healthy discussion on this article. My personal opinion on choking is similar to the author's in that you lose a game from a position of strength. It has nothing to do with on your prospects entering a tournament, let alone a match.

Not sure what happened in 99. Had Donald and Klusener decided to run no matter what on that delivery and then Klusener changed his mind? Who knows... Donald set off like he thought he was meant to and well, we all know how it ended.

The 2003 debacle was a simple case of misinterpreting a formula. They thought they had done enough to secure the win, and declined a single which would have mattered. As the author says, how can an arithmetic bungle be construed as choking?

2007 was a nightmare from the get go. Yes, we had a cracking good squad of players, but the idea of playing 'brave cricket' (especially in a semi final of all games) really didn't work out, particularly on those West Indian surfaces. We simply didn't adjust a set game plan. Yes, we bowled a shower of shyte and allowed Australia to get a tone of runs but in our chase, we were never in it. If we had been 300/4 with 10 overs left and lost, fine THAT's a choke.

The QF in 2011 against New Zealand was a nightmare as we were in a strong position and let it slip through nothing really that NZ did. If I remember correctly, Jacob Oram took a great catch on the rope to dismiss Kallis; then there was the run out of AB and finally, Faf was sledged to hell and back by the Kiwis and he let it get to him. This match for me was our biggest choke.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

@ZFC - remember our revised wager - 4 innings - no ducks and at least one fifty?

RR - 4 innings - 0 ducks, 1 century .

Ah yes 7,4,132,16, 2

What's you poison, and where's your favourite watering hole?

I'll send my messenger with your delivery.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

AB and # is going to decide how we will do in this WC. They are the key players.

And Vern!

AB will be as big a disappointment as Christiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi at the FIFA WC.

Amla&Philander!

 

[Rusty0]

I say the team with the best bowlers will win the WC.

 

[Rusty0]

My ranking would be as follows:
1 - Oz
2 - NZ
3 - SA
4 - SL

I will not say we are favorites for this WC. Yes, we are good enough to be there or thereabouts in the end.

So get to the Semi and lose/choke?

 

[ZCFOutkast]

I say the team with the best bowlers will win the WC.

So NZ it is then - Southee, Boult, Vettori, McCullum, MJ McClenaghan/Mills?

No one comes close you know. They've got specialist ODI bowlers, all proven.

 

[Badprop_za]

So get to the Semi and lose/choke?

Yip. Lose in the semi.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

The Proteas will lose to ENG/SL in the QFs!!!!

 

[Neoprod]

Yes, we bowled a shower of shyte and allowed Australia to get a tone of runs but in our chase, we were never in it.

The group game isn't germane to how we got knocked out of the 2007 World Cup - the semi-final is. We batted first and got knocked over for 150 by playing a very unnatural game (that in my opinion was brought on by pressured thinking) - see for example McGrath bowling Kallis (have you ever seen Kallis play a shot like that in the early overs of an innings?).

I stand by my opinion that choking isn't only about being in a winning position then folding...what if your inability to execute your skill in a pressure situation puts you on the back foot from the start?