Ongoing Israeli-Palestinian Violence

[Fulcrum29]

Palestinian Land Law calls for the death of those who sell land to Jews. Abbas is on record of saying no Jew would be welcome in a future Palestinian state.

An answer to Israel occupying territories by the IDF, which evicts Palestinians, to quote:

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

“We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

“We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative,” Abbas said. “But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.”

The PA president criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and accused him of placing obstacles on the road to peace.

“He who prefers settlements over peace is responsible for the obstacles to peace,” he added.

“If he really was interested in peace, he would have at least preferred peace to settlements.”

Abbas accused the Israeli government of “deception” with the purpose of blaming the Palestinians for the current impasse in the peace talks. He also criticized the US administration for failing to put pressure on Israel to stop the construction in the settlements and east Jerusalem.

Noted, the article is dated 2010. Taking in regard the 2012 UN report on settlements and the 2013 EU directive.

Yes, you are wrong, as I clearly stated that Israel has constitutionally mandated equality for all its citizens. Arab Palestinians living in Gaza and W.Bank are not citizens of Israel.

So I am wrong and it is equality when non-Israeli citizens are evicted to allow room to increase Israeli state-ownership. As per above, read the 2012 UN report on settlements and the 2013 EU directive.

For one, the Supreme Court of Israel—unique among the world’s judiciaries—exercises control over military decisions that are challenged under the rule of law as creating undue risks to civilians. Many security laws have been amended or repealed due to human rights concerns.

Tell me, which entities are responsible to make these security laws and which entity selects these lawmakers? The Knesset has 120 seats, seated by 68 coalition members and 52 opposition members. This also entails the controversy surrounding Judge Noam Sohlberg. There is also the growing soviet concern, Russian-speaking Israeli's.

I hope you are able to differentiate between Israeli law which mandates equality, and manifestos of minority political parties. Also, I hope you admit that no Israeli political party has anything resembling Hamas' covenant, which calls for the murder of all Jews.

Again, which people practice Israeli law, do Judge Noam Sohlberg practice the law according to mandate and equality, or do he simply use the non-Israeli citizen excuse to evict Palestinians to suit his own settler purpose? As with one party in mention, Yisrael Beiteinu won't recognise the cross-party Jewish-Arab equality covenant. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman also urged to boycott Arab businesses, Israeli citizens, see the equality here... I don't see where Lieberman concurred to the Israeli law equality mandate.

Why do I have to admit anything? I made ample opinions on Hamas here on MyBB.

 

[Kidkaroo]

As the West Bank was under Jordanian control, and Gaza under Egyptian control prior to it being won in a defensive was by Israel, the final status of the disputed territories, as you should know, is to be decided when the Arabs decide to sign a final peace deal with Israel.
You asked me to prove that the PA want a Judenrein Palestine and I did so. Your only response is that the links I provided quoting Abbas are from 4 years old. Please provide proof that the Land Law, mandating death to those who sell land to Jews, has been revoked.
Also, you seem incapable of differentiating between what is Israeli law and what is party political rhetoric. The fact is, if any Jew commits a violent act against an Arab, he is prosecuted. When Arabs commit violence against Israelis, they are lauded as heroes by the PA. Ditto, if Lieberman or any other politician were to break the law they would be prosecuted - as happened when a former President was sentence to seven years in prison by an ARAB Israeli Judge. My reference to Hamas' covenant was with regards to your earlier comment where you tried to draw moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas.

 

[Fulcrum29]

As the West Bank was under Jordanian control, and Gaza under Egyptian control prior to it being won in a defensive was by Israel, the final status of the disputed territories, as you should know, is to be decided when the Arabs decide to sign a final peace deal with Israel.

I sided with the 2012 UN report on settlements, the 2013 EU directive and the Geneva Conventions in regard to international humanitarian law. Take it up with the UN en EU should you choose to have an issue as this annexation has not been recognised by the international community.

You asked me to prove that the PA want a Judenrein Palestine and I did so. Your only response is that the links I provided quoting Abbas are from 4 years old. Please provide proof that the Land Law, mandating death to those who sell land to Jews, has been revoked.

Again to the above, http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/fact sheets/NSU Memo Txns Pal property FINAL (Oct 2008).pdf (PDF), the land ownership laws in Palestine, governed by local law, are applicable to Israeli occupation.

To quote wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws

In early April 2009, it was reported that several Jewish businessmen from the United States purchased 20 dunams (2 hectares) of land from Palestinians in the Mount of Olives area of Jerusalem. The report prompted a Chief Islamic Judge of the Palestinian Authority to remind of an existing fatwa that bans Palestinians from selling property to Jews, which is considered high treason and punishable by death.[15] Fatah legislator Hatem Abdel Kader, an advisor to the PA Prime Minister, asserted that the ban on sale of property to Jews was still necessary as the Israeli government and settlers were mounting a "fierce onslaught" on the Arab sector in East Jerusalem, attempting to alter the demographic balance there by demolishing Palestinian homes.[15] East Jerusalem was annexed by Israel in the wake of the 1967 war, but the annexation has not been recognized by the international community.[16]

In late April 2009, a Palestinian military court condemned a man to death by hanging for treason after he sold some land to Israelis. The death sentence requires the approval of the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, who is not expected to approve it.[3]

The last mentioned case in the above quote was never approved by Abbas. Yes, the law is in existence until Israel stops with their illegal occupation. Furthermore, I quoted your article other than only mentioning the date.

Snipped quote:

“He who prefers settlements over peace is responsible for the obstacles to peace,” he added.

“If he really was interested in peace, he would have at least preferred peace to settlements.”

It comes down to this, a segregation practice:

Illegal occupation / IDF control - Israeli's banned in a Palestinian state
Peace / No IDF control - Israeli's allowed in a Palestinian state

Also, you seem incapable of differentiating between what is Israeli law and what is party political rhetoric. The fact is, if any Jew commits a violent act against an Arab, he is prosecuted. When Arabs commit violence against Israelis, they are lauded as heroes by the PA. Ditto, if Lieberman or any other politician were to break the law they would be prosecuted - as happened when a former President was sentence to seven years in prison by an ARAB Israeli Judge. My reference to Hamas' covenant was with regards to your earlier comment where you tried to draw moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas.

The world had already shown that a party political rhetoric can be instituted into the respective laws. I also never made a moral comparison between Israel and Hamas, read up on my other posts on MyBB in relation to Hamas.

I will bring this into mention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Israel

Politics[edit]
Roughly 20 percent of Israel's population was born in Russia,[26][27] and, as of 2013, the Russian-speaking community accounts for 15 percent of Israel's eligible voters.[25] Ze'ev Khanin surmised that Russian Jews tend to be politically conservative, estimating that 50 to 60 percent support the Likud Beiteinu party.[25]

Israeli journalist Lily Galili attributed this to being in part due to an unwillingness to make land concessions for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. She explained, "They come from this huge empire to this tiny Israel and they say: 'Is that all, is that the country? And what, you want to give back the territories? Who gives up territory in the first place! And in this small country. You must be kidding!'"[27] Russian-speaking Israeli analyst Igor Khlopitsky stated that this also resulted from the Russian-speaking Israelis generally wanting quick results during times of turmoil, saying, "Those who came after Perestroika had the Soviet mentality beaten out of them by the very difficult problems of the time. And where some other Israelis see the possibilities for discussion and dialogue, they just want to solve the problems swiftly."[27]

Netanyahu is also tied to the Likud Yisrael Beiteinu political party, though it dissolved on 9 July 2014. Russians being Russians, some even deny the Hebrew language. Reading the above quote by Lily Galili, the Ukraine and Crimea crisis comes to mind.

 

[LazyLion]

HAMAS PLANNED TO ASSASSINATE ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER, REPORT SAYS

Hamas militants planned to kill Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, and had already collected information on his movements, a media report said late Thursday.

A cell from the military wing of Hamas in the Bethlehem area was planning to assassinate Lieberman using a rocket propelled grenade and had bought the launcher, said the Ynet website, linked to leading newspaper Yediot Ahronot. The website cited a statement from the Israel Defence Forces, the police and the Shin Bet domestic security service.

The cell was led by Ibrahim Salim Mahmoud al-Zir, 37, the report said.

The planned attack was intended to send a message to Israel to stop its attacks on Gaza during the offensive in the summer that killed around 2,100 Palestinians, according to UN figures.

Al-Zir reportedly recruited his brother, Ziad Salim Mahmoud al-Zir, 35, and another Hamas militant Adnan Amin Mahmoud al-Zir, 31, to his cell. Adnan and Ziad both admitted to joining the cell to help carry out the attack, the report said.

Al-Zir contacted Yusef Ibrahim Yusef al-Sheikh, 50, to get him to obtain a rocket launcher for the planned hit.

Israeli intelligence services said the cell collected information on the movement's of Lieberman's convoy.

Lieberman is the only senior minister to live on the West Bank and his convoy could be seen on the highway to Jerusalem.

The cell's members have been indicted for conspiracy to commit premeditated manslaughter and conspiring to trade in arms.


Source : Sapa-dpa /nsm
Date : 21 Nov 2014 06:35

 

[Kidkaroo]

Fulcrum29, I'll take your non sequitur response as a tacit admission that you are unable to refute the fact that Israel has full equality under the law for its citizens, while the PA has anti Jewish land laws.

 

[Cray]

Fulcrum29, I'll take your non sequitur response as a tacit admission that you are unable to refute the fact that Israel has full equality under the law for its citizens, while the PA has anti Jewish land laws.

Sometimes what the law states and what happens in practises are very different..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.[166] The joint document The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel, asserts: "Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State." The document explains that by definition the "Jewish State" concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission.[167]

Yousef Munayyer, an Israeli citizen and the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund, wrote that Palestinians only have varying degrees of limited rights in Israel. He states that although Palestinians make up about 20 percent of Israel's population, less than 7 percent of the budget is allocated to Palestinian citizens. He describes the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel as second-class citizens while four million more are not citizens at all. He states that a Jew from any country can move to Israel but a Palestinian refugee, with a valid claim to property in Israel, cannot. Munayyer also described the difficulties he and his wife faced when visiting the country.[170]

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Sometimes what the law states and what happens in practises are very different..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

You won't get any honest answers from Kidkaroo. My back-and-forth with him in a different thread proved as much. He'll steadfastly refuse that Israel is ever in the wrong and will quote Zionist zealots to prove it.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Fulcrum29, I'll take your non sequitur response as a tacit admission that you are unable to refute the fact that Israel has full equality under the law for its citizens, while the PA has anti Jewish land laws.

I'm sorry, I don't see Israel practice "Full" equality amongst all its citizens, also why I mentioned Liebermann (who is being targeted as per post #64) urging to boycott Arab-Israeli businesses. The rest you hide behind the Isreali Supreme Court, while the IDF Civil Administration openly practices their Israel territorial expansion and where the court appoints settlers. You blatantly made up that I compared Israel to Hamas, while I only pointed to the minority parties and the IDF, and where I only elaborated on illegal occupation and Abbas being the only sane politician in this crux. The evicted Palestinians and the Palestinians under IDF control are by no means citizens in the Israeli state.

I can only guess that the UN, EU and the international humanitarian law position on this matter is also a non sequitur response in your perspective. I get it, Kidkaroo approves illegal occupation.

 

[Kidkaroo]

You won't get any honest answers from Kidkaroo. My back-and-forth with him in a different thread proved as much. He'll steadfastly refuse that Israel is ever in the wrong and will quote Zionist zealots to prove it.

Which of my answers were dishonest? Since when is wikipedia "Zionist zealots"?

 

[Kidkaroo]

You blatantly made up that I compared Israel to Hamas

I don't pick any side here, both sides are wrong

.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Which of my answers were dishonest? Since when is wikipedia "Zionist zealots"?

You paint a dishonest picture of equality in Israel, and your claim that "any Jew who commits violence against an Arab is prosecuted" is simply untrue. You also paint a dishonest view of the situation in Palestine when you keep mentioning the (patently ludicrous) death penalty for land sales to Jews in Palestine without mentioning that it's never actually been done and Abbas routinely refuses to sign off on them.

That British commander you so eagerly quoted is a Zionist zealot.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

.

Nice logic fail. Saying both sides are in the wrong isn't the same as comparing them to each other.

Subject A did x wrong.
Subject B did y wrong.

At no point is comparison necessary.

And funnily enough, it's usually the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd that continually compare the two. Whenever someone dares cricise Israel we always hear "BUT BUT HAMAS DID X". Good to know you expect Israel to be no better than a terrorist group, though.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Sometimes what the law states and what happens in practises are very different..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

From your link: The Israeli Declaration of Independence stated that the State of Israel would ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex, and guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

Any discrimination is thus illegal under the constitution, and open to legal challenge.

Compare and contrast with the PA's Land Law: The Palestinian Authority has a prohibition against selling land to Israelis.[30] The law made such sales to Jews, punishable by death.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Nice logic fail. Saying both sides are in the wrong isn't the same as comparing them to each other.

Subject A did x wrong.
Subject B did y wrong.

At no point is comparison necessary.

And funnily enough, it's usually the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd that continually compare the two. Whenever someone dares cricise Israel we always hear "BUT BUT HAMAS DID X". Good to know you expect Israel to be no better than a terrorist group, though.

He said I fabricated something, I proved I did not. If you chose to be wilfully obtuse and deny that "I don't pick any side here, both sides are wrong" is not drawing moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas then that speaks to your bias, not mine.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

He said I fabricated something, I proved I did not. If you chose to be wilfully obtuse and deny that "I don't pick any side here, both sides are wrong" is not drawing moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas then that speaks to your bias, not mine.

Oh, you don't hide your bias (and prejudice), naturally.

And I just showed how it's possible to criticise both for transgressing without siding only with one.

 

[Kidkaroo]

You paint a dishonest picture of equality in Israel, and your claim that "any Jew who commits violence against an Arab is prosecuted" is simply untrue. You also paint a dishonest view of the situation in Palestine when you keep mentioning the (patently ludicrous) death penalty for land sales to Jews in Palestine without mentioning that it's never actually been done and Abbas routinely refuses to sign off on them.

That British commander you so eagerly quoted is a Zionist zealot.

So you disbelieve proof of LAW constitutionally mandating equality for all Israeli citizens, as well as disbelieving proof of PA anti-Jewish LAW. Why am I not surprised.

Are you going to disregard the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as a Zionist zealot as well?

The highest-ranking U.S. military officer said on Thursday that Israel went to "extraordinary lengths" to limit civilian casualties in the recent war in Gaza and that the Pentagon had sent a team to see what lessons could be learned from the operation.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Oh, you don't hide your bias (and prejudice), naturally.

And I just showed how it's possible to criticise both for transgressing without siding only with one.

It's called moral equivalence.

Hamas started the conflict, they deliberately prolonged it by refusing the various ceasefires on offer and they ensured civilian casualties by positioning their rocket launchers in densely populated areas. It's a really simple equation, all Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and then Israel will have nothing to respond to. And if they want peace on an ongoing basis, then they should acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and renounce their published statement that all Jews in this world should be killed.

You hold Israel to a uniquely high standard, while requiring nothing from the Palestinians, and then call me prejudice.

 

[daveza]

It's a really simple equation, all Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and then Israel will have nothing to respond to. And if they want peace on an ongoing basis, then they should acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and renounce their published statement that all Jews in this world should be killed.

And then Netanyahu will give them their independence right ?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

So you disbelieve proof of LAW constitutionally mandating equality for all Israeli citizens, as well as disbelieving proof of PA anti-Jewish LAW. Why am I not surprised.

Are you going to disregard the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as a Zionist zealot as well?

The highest-ranking U.S. military officer said on Thursday that Israel went to "extraordinary lengths" to limit civilian casualties in the recent war in Gaza and that the Pentagon had sent a team to see what lessons could be learned from the operation.

More dishonesty, this time in the form of a strawman. What the law mandates is not at all the same as the reality on the ground. And where did I disbelieve the PA law? Comprehension issues?

And nah, that sounds like standard political rhetoric. Much like the Rabbis and lawmakers you dismiss who call for the genocide of Palestinians.

It's called moral equivalence.

Hamas started the conflict, they deliberately prolonged it by refusing the various ceasefires on offer and they ensured civilian casualties by positioning their rocket launchers in densely populated areas. It's a really simple equation, all Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and then Israel will have nothing to respond to. And if they want peace on an ongoing basis, then they should acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and renounce their published statement that all Jews in this world should be killed.

You hold Israel to a uniquely high standard, while requiring nothing from the Palestinians, and then call me prejudice.

Yeah, I'm sure Palestine will get their independence if they stop resisting. It happened in the 40 years that Hamas didn't exist, right? Israel stopped expanding their settlements, right? Oh wait, no it didn't and no they haven't.

And you hold Israel to the same standard you hold Hamas. No wonder you don't mind them killing civilians en masse.

 

[Kidkaroo]

And then Netanyahu will give them their independence right ?

Well, as I'm sure you know, Gaza is completely Judenrein. But the final status of erstwhile Jordanian ruled W.Bank and erstwhile Egyptian ruled Gaza has to be decided when/if the Arabs ever sign a final peace treaty.