Ongoing Palestinian terror attacks against Israel.

[Xarog]

Not from me

Au contraire. I specifically asked you to describe the scale. This is prompting you for a source regarding your claims that they are indeed different scales.

 

[Alan]

History is written by the victors, the firebombing of Dresden by the Allies could just as easily qualify as a war crime.

I said the strategic bombing campaign. I take it you're also against the bombing of ISIS as well since innocent people will die making the West no better then ISIS :erm:

You and marine keep mentioning facts but you link precious little of them in you posts... What, in your opinion then, is the root cause?

Posted plenty but since it doesn't fit your narrow "blame the west and every extremist is a victim" world view it gets ignored I suppose.

 

[Cray]

I said the strategic bombing campaign. I take it you're also against the bombing of ISIS as well since innocent people will die making the West no better then ISIS :erm:

It's the usual army approach, we don't care how many innocents indiscriminate bombing kills because at the end of the day the lives of our soldiers are more valuable than innocent civilians.

 

[Cray]

Posted plenty but since it doesn't fit your narrow "blame the west and every extremist is a victim" world view it gets ignored I suppose.

So that would be a "no" then, how about a short summary of the root cause of the conflict according to you?

 

[TheJman]

The point here, which everyone seems to be missing, is that the Israelis can't cry foul over the Palestinians behaviour when the Israeli behaviour is exactly the same. And that goes for people picking sides in the conflict, too.

Same can be said for the fundamentalist Zionists teaching their kids about Eretz Israel and how its theirs because God promised it to them, and how they're entitled to have the land because of the Shoah etc. etc.

Hatred and prejudice take on many forms, and you always find at the core some kind of sentiment of victimhood. Again, the Palestinians and the Israelis are alike in this, there is no distinguishing the two groups based on behaviour in this regard.

Yeah, the arab stuff is pretty crude. But that the Israelis are more clever about it does not preclude the fact that it's there. And frankly the more suave it is, the more effective it is, so in an ironic sense the stuff the PA churns out is not as bad cuz at least you can see it for what it is a mile off.

That is the point I'm trying to make though Xarog, how is Israeli behaviour, on a national scale, the same as that of hamas and the pa, where are the 13 year old Israeli children taking knives and trying to stab arab children to death? Fundamentally, they are worlds apart. The point is taken that in every society there will be extremists that call for the murder of innocent, the difference here is that school circular in Israel is not showing children how good death is, there are no images of terrorists who manage to kill children plastered on the walls, the tv programs don't show how to murder people, the difference is that gaza is under the rule of a tyrant that purposefully uses the civilians to further it's purpose, if you want peace, you have to start at the door and that door is dealing with a party whose freedom charter doesn't call for the annihilation of your people, because by logic, where do you start the negotiation? "Okay so you want us dead, and we don't really want to be dead"...

Wrong. Israel has been very cynical in placing many of its defensive structures inbetween Israeli Arab areas, presumably to discourage attacks on those installations from other countries in the Middle East.

You do realise that the areas you're talking about are areas where arabs have been firing rockets at? And as your said, defensive structures, to protect Israelis from attacks on innocent civilians. By stark contrast, hamas' infrastructure is used to launch attacks from. Surely you can see the difference?

Lol. Yeah, and Israel's bases and arnament factories aren't anywhere near civilian population centres. Riiiiight.

Was that a statement or an assumption?

Go ahead, show me some place in Gaza that you can shoot from without being in amongst civilians or their buildings. It's an open air prison and the most densely populated area on the planet.

So firstly, hiding weapons and launching attacks from a hospital, from a UN school etc is never ever justified.

Secondly, the contention that gaza is most densely populated areas on the planet stands to be proved.

Thirdly, to answer your request:

31.316759, 34.258313

31.315399, 34.246134

31.315808, 34.229453

31.332558, 34.253961

31.332558, 34.253961

31.365155, 34.290784

31.373475, 34.315581

31.376969, 34.309592

31.414544, 34.386448

31.413505, 34.398605

31.414108, 34.386634

31.403305, 34.383825

31.470301, 34.390024

31.475431, 34.409035

31.482672, 34.399410

31.471213, 34.449526

31.513463, 34.518554

31.513463, 34.518554

 

[Xarog]

It's the usual army approach, we don't care how many innocents indiscriminate bombing kills because at the end of the day the lives of our soldiers are more valuable than innocent civilians.

Plus Alan conveniently assumes that what the IDF is doing is "strategic bombing" but again such an assertion is tenuous at best and outright propaganda at worst.

Posted plenty but since it doesn't fit your narrow "blame the west and every extremist is a victim" world view it gets ignored I suppose.

Show where, please.

 

[TheJman]

It's the usual army approach, we don't care how many innocents indiscriminate bombing kills because at the end of the day the lives of our soldiers are more valuable than innocent civilians.

Wait this is an important question.. Cray, do you support the bombing of ISIS or not?

 

[Xarog]

That is the point I'm trying to make though Xarog, how is Israeli behaviour, on a national scale, the same as that of hamas and the pa, where are the 13 year old Israeli children taking knives and trying to stab arab children to death?

No, they have a professional army to do that. I'm sure if the Palestinians were as well armed and funded as the IDF that they'd feel no need to resort to using children or asymmetric warfare in general.

Fundamentally, they are worlds apart. The point is taken that in every society there will be extremists that call for the murder of innocent, the difference here is that school circular in Israel is not showing children how good death is, there are no images of terrorists who manage to kill children plastered on the walls, the tv programs don't show how to murder people, the difference is that gaza is under the rule of a tyrant that purposefully uses the civilians to further it's purpose, if you want peace, you have to start at the door and that door is dealing with a party whose freedom charter doesn't call for the annihilation of your people, because by logic, where do you start the negotiation? "Okay so you want us dead, and we don't really want to be dead"...

Tell that to the Jews that terrorised the Brits pre-1948.

You do realise that the areas you're talking about are areas where arabs have been firing rockets at?

Yes, and that's exactly why it's reasonable to conclude that the shots were aimed at military targets.

And as your said, defensive structures, to protect Israelis from attacks on innocent civilians. By stark contrast, hamas' infrastructure is used to launch attacks from. Surely you can see the difference?

The Palestinians' defensive structures are identical to Israel's in all respects. That's the point. You want to blame them for their tactics when Israel does exactly the same thing. There is no difference.

Was that a statement or an assumption?

It was sarcasm based on what was said earlier in my post. Which I believe I've now explained sufficiently.

So firstly, hiding weapons and launching attacks from a hospital, from a UN school etc is never ever justified.

And niether is building arnament factories and military bases etc. in the middle of civilian populations with a view to using the civilians as a human shield a la Israeli propaganda during their last onslaught against Hezbollah.

Secondly, the contention that gaza is most densely populated areas on the planet stands to be proved.

Fine, "one of" the most densely populated areas. Better?

Thirdly, to answer your request:

31.316759, 34.258313
31.315399, 34.246134
31.315808, 34.229453
31.332558, 34.253961
31.332558, 34.253961
31.365155, 34.290784
31.373475, 34.315581
31.376969, 34.309592
31.414544, 34.386448
31.413505, 34.398605
31.414108, 34.386634
31.403305, 34.383825
31.470301, 34.390024
31.475431, 34.409035
31.482672, 34.399410
31.471213, 34.449526
31.513463, 34.518554
31.513463, 34.518554

And do you have a reasonable proposal as to how Hamas etc. can reach those areas? Is it viable to create a fighting strategy whereby one can respond to Israeli aggression and return fire "effectively"? (Gazan rockets aren't really effective beyond scare tactics).

 

[Cray]

Wait this is an important question.. Cray, do you support the bombing of ISIS or not?

Not when large groups of civilians are put at risk by said bombing, or do you think that being killed by a bomb is somehow preferable to being killed by ISIS?

 

[TheJman]

No, they have a professional army to do that. I'm sure if the Palestinians were as well armed and funded as the IDF that they'd feel no need to resort to using children or asymmetric warfare in general.

Interesting view, you seem to skirt the issue around the fact that a child went and tried to kill another child, which is a clear indication of indoctrination and brainwashing - which in my personal view point is a disgusting form of control that the dictators in gaza and the WB exert over their populace.

Tell that to the Jews that terrorised the Brits pre-1948.

See again, this is a diversion away from the topic at hand, I am happy to go an research and look into your claims, but please first deal with mine?

The Palestinians' defensive structures are identical to Israel's in all respects. That's the point. You want to blame them for their tactics when Israel does exactly the same thing. There is no difference.

Please indicate where Israel hides weapons in Synagogs, in the basement of schools and hospitals, please provide evidence that Israel fires rockets from the rooftops of civilian homes and hospitals in order to substantiate your claims

And niether is building arnament factories and military bases etc. in the middle of civilian populations with a view to using the civilians as a human shield a la Israeli propaganda during their last onslaught against Hezbollah.

As requested above, please substantiate your claims

And do you have a reasonable proposal as to how Hamas etc. can reach those areas? Is it viable to create a fighting strategy whereby one can respond to Israeli aggression and return fire "effectively"? (Gazan rockets aren't really effective beyond scare tactics).

You asked me to show you open areas, I did. I have not been to Gaza and therefore cannot make wild assumptions and unfounded baseless facts about how hamas should reach those areas. What I can say is that your statement could be read as justifying the use of civilian infrastructure and populace - I really hope that that inference is not true

 

[TheJman]

Not when large groups of civilians are put at risk by said bombing, or do you think that being killed by a bomb is somehow preferable to being killed by ISIS?

In no way do I think that the death of innocent is ever justified, my question was more to determine whether you supported ISIS or not...

 

[Alan]

Not when large groups of civilians are put at risk by said bombing, or do you think that being killed by a bomb is somehow preferable to being killed by ISIS?

There you go. ISIS just needs to move their base of operations into large populated areas and they're free to carry out attacks and kill as many as they please.

Small groups of innocent people however are free game. Which is surprising given this logic

Why are civilians deaths by terrorism any more reprehensible than civilian deaths inflicted by an army? The dead people certainly don't know the difference.

Somehow now it is different if they just happen to be in a small group. Even though none of them were attacking the West....

Because all those dead Palestinian woman and children where physically attacking Israel when they where killed?

 

[Cray]

There you go. ISIS just needs to move their base of operations into large populated areas and they're free to carry out attacks and kill as many as they please.
Small groups of innocent people however are free game. Which is surprising given this logic

Okay, in your mind, what is the purpose of attacking ISIS, why are ISIS so bad? ISIS in my mind, kill innocent people and are scourge, but indiscriminate bombing also kills innocent people... How can you condemn ISIS for killing people when your actions in supressing them do the same thing? By all means, ISIS are terrible and should be stopped but it should be done with a ground force, not simply indiscriminately dropping bombs from afar.

 

[Cray]

In no way do I think that the death of innocent is ever justified, my question was more to determine whether you supported ISIS or not...

No I don't support ISIS, the fact that you think that I might actually support them is quite disturbing...

 

[Xarog]

Interesting view, you seem to skirt the issue around the fact that a child went and tried to kill another child, which is a clear indication of indoctrination and brainwashing - which in my personal view point is a disgusting form of control that the dictators in gaza and the WB exert over their populace.

I've already addressed the issue. I've said that it happens on both sides, and that it is bad that it happens on either side.

See again, this is a diversion away from the topic at hand, I am happy to go an research and look into your claims, but please first deal with mine?

I am dealing with your claims. I am pointing out that when the British were occupying Palestine back when it was a British mandate, the Jews did not have a regular army and thus they resorted to terrorism by bombing British hotels etc.

Thus the claim that there is something different about the Palestinians or the way they behave doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because it shows very strongly that such behaviour is dictated by circumstance not principle.

Please indicate where Israel hides weapons in Synagogs, in the basement of schools and hospitals, please provide evidence that Israel fires rockets from the rooftops of civilian homes and hospitals in order to substantiate your claims

Um. A hidden weapon that is not in use doesn't represent an imminent threat to anyone. The fact alone that Israel's military installations are typically in or very near to densely populated Arab parts of the population is all I need to point to in order to show that Israel makes use of its civilian population as a human shield to the same degree as the Palestinians with regards to weapon storage and where they place their military bases, etc. I do not need to show that they adopt the exact same tactics as the Palestinians to prove this, and so your standards are unreasonable.

As requested above, please substantiate your claims

http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=12159

HRW produced two lengthy reports in August 2007, one examining events in Lebanon and the other events in Israel. But the report on what happened inside Israel, "Civilians Under Assault," failed to examine Israel's treatment of its own civilians and focused instead only on proving that Hezbollah's firing of its rockets violated international law.

HRW did make a brief reference to the possibility that Israeli military installations were located close to or inside civilian communities. It cited examples of a naval training base next to a hospital in Haifa and a weapons factory built in a civilian community. Its researchers even admitted to watching the Israeli army firing shells into Lebanon from a residential street of the Jewish community of Zarit.

This act of "cowardly blending" by the Israeli army – to echo the UN envoy Jan Egeland's unwarranted criticism of Hezbollah – was a war crime. It made Israeli civilians a potential target for Hezbollah reprisal attacks.

Edit:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21731.htm

Just in case you're going to start complaining about the sources...

 

[Alan]

Okay, in your mind, what is the purpose of attacking ISIS, why are ISIS so bad? ISIS in my mind, kill innocent people and are scourge, but indiscriminate bombing also kills innocent people... How can you condemn ISIS for killing people when your actions in supressing them do the same thing? By all means, ISIS are terrible and should be stopped but it should be done with a ground force, not simply indiscriminately dropping bombs from afar.

Nobody advocates indiscriminate bombing of anybody. However people must be realistic that if there was to be effective measures taken against extremists then innocent people will die. Israel certainly does not indulge in indiscriminate bombing of Gaza for example. If they did the casualties would be far far higher than what they are. In fact they have the capability to flatten the place. Now the parameters the Israeli air force use to justify whether they can make a strike are on to many occasions unacceptably lax it doesn't compare to the deliberate and genuinely indiscriminate attacks against civilians perpetrated by Hamas against Israeli civilians. Nevermind their own Palestinians.

Now if you want to apply your moral equivalent logic to this conflict then you must apply it to every other conflict and this is where it falls apart because for example it renders Churchill and FDR as war criminals no better than Hitler or Tojo. After all they were leaders of armies responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. What difference does it make to thousands of Frenchmen who died in Normandy whether it was at the hands of the allies or the nazis. They're dead anyway....

Same thing with the conflict now in Syria with regards to ISIS.

No I don't support ISIS, the fact that you think that I might actually support them is quite disturbing...

Then perhaps you should take a look at the positions you take as it seems to create that suspicion.

 

[Cray]

Then perhaps you should take a look at the positions you take as it seems to create that suspicion.

Yes, my position is that the killing of innocent people is terrible and that both sides of this conflict are guilty of it so that means I most likely support ISIS... . It's the usual conservative BS that Marine specialises in, any criticism of Israeli methods automatically means that you are capable of supporting the worst of humanity. Paint your detractors in the worst possible light rather than actually trying to look at both sides. Marine has called me a Muslim on a few occasions because he cannot fathom the idea that I could find good and bad in the behaviour of both sides.

 

[Xarog]

Nobody advocates indiscriminate bombing of anybody.

Yeah, cuz doing so publicly would be stupid. Doesn't mean that people aren't totally fine with it in private. People ruled by prejudice tend to be sneaky this way.

However people must be realistic that if there was to be effective measures taken against extremists then innocent people will die.

In order to be effective, they must also be reasonable.

Israel certainly does not indulge in indiscriminate bombing of Gaza for example.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21731.htm

If they did the casualties would be far far higher than what they are. In fact they have the capability to flatten the place.

Even racists realise their pogroms have limits if they're to maintain even the pretense of a facade regarding their actions being legitimate military behaviour.

Now the parameters the Israeli air force use to justify whether they can make a strike are on to many occasions unacceptably lax it doesn't compare to the deliberate and genuinely indiscriminate attacks against civilians perpetrated by Hamas against Israeli civilians. Nevermind their own Palestinians.

Ipse dixit. How is it that you're so keenly aware as to what goes on in the mind of other people?

Now if you want to apply your moral equivalent logic to this conflict then you must apply it to every other conflict and this is where it falls apart because for example it renders Churchill and FDR as war criminals no better than Hitler or Tojo. After all they were leaders of armies responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. What difference does it make to thousands of Frenchmen who died in Normandy whether it was at the hands of the allies or the nazis. They're dead anyway....

Avnery beat you to it. His argument is more compelling than yours, I found.

Same thing with the conflict now in Syria with regards to ISIS.

That depends entirely on whether or not the strategy to deal with ISIS is practically achievable. None of the IDF's recent military strategies have been anything remotely resembling practical. This is a large part of the reason why Hezbollah humiliated them so badly the last time the IDF got into a fight with them. The IDF's plans for dealing with Hamas seem to be no better.

Then perhaps you should take a look at the positions you take as it seems to create that suspicion.

Perhaps you should check your unsupportable assumptions at the door which foment such a suspicion in the first place.

 

[lived666]

Israeli stabbed in Gush Etzion junction attack
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4717619,00.html

Woman moderately wounded, attacker apprehended around half an hour after attempted stabbing near Hebron.
Elisha Ben Kimon
Published: 10.28.15, 16:10 / Israel News

A 40-year-old Israeli woman was stabbed and moderately wounded at Gush Etzion junction on Wednesday afternoon, according to MDA. The attacker was soon apprehended.

A large number of security forces made their way to the scene, where the woman had been wounded in a shopping area.

Only about half an hour earlier, a Palestinian man attempted to stab a group of soldiers near the entrance of Tel Ramadia in Hebron on Wednesday afternoon, and was consequentially shot and killed.

The soldiers from the Givati Brigade, noticed the man pulling a knife during a typical security inspection at the entrance to the neighborhood, and managed to shoot the assailant before he could stab them.

The Hamas aligned city of Hebron has become the most recent flashpoint in the current wave of violence, with several attacks and stabbing attempts having taken place in the city.

 

[RandomDesign]

Israeli stabbed in Gush Etzion junction attack
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4717619,00.html

Woman moderately wounded, attacker apprehended around half an hour after attempted stabbing near Hebron.
Elisha Ben Kimon
Published: 10.28.15, 16:10 / Israel News
A 40-year-old Israeli woman was stabbed and moderately wounded at Gush Etzion junction on Wednesday afternoon, according to MDA. The attacker was soon apprehended.

A large number of security forces made their way to the scene, where the woman had been wounded in a shopping area.

Only about half an hour earlier, a Palestinian man attempted to stab a group of soldiers near the entrance of Tel Ramadia in Hebron on Wednesday afternoon, and was consequentially shot and killed.

The soldiers from the Givati Brigade, noticed the man pulling a knife during a typical security inspection at the entrance to the neighborhood, and managed to shoot the assailant before he could stab them.

The Hamas aligned city of Hebron has become the most recent flashpoint in the current wave of violence, with several attacks and stabbing attempts having taken place in the city.

man that almost sounds like a Darwin award nominee... Arab man pulling out a knife in front of Israeli soldiers... how many ways did he think that could end