Pain / Doctors / General rant

thats not because it cant progress, its because hippies wont let it progress. There is so much red tape. You know there are experimental models that can cure brain cancer? there are 100s of experimental nanomedicines out there however, due to lack of in vivo testing they cant enter the market. They cant even move into human models they in limbo (they have been around since 2000).

Ever since animal testing became so regulated it has almost halted the development of medical science. Not to mention the religious nut jobs that stopped the experiments on stem cells.

Ethics is the most painful excuse. Its necessary though one must value life however at what cost ? We currently cannot experiment on primates without very specialised consent, however what better model to test on ? unfortunately people see it as a waste even though that animal will not die in vain. Animal testing is a must we do not have the technology to synthetically create a true biological environment therefore we must use animals, with this hindered medical progression is hindered.

Currently one third of the population has TB, thats approximately 2.3 billion people and the situation is getting worse with the new strain of TDR-TB. Would you cause the extinction of an entire species to have a CHANCE to save these people ? and that is why medicine's progress is gone slow.

absoulte bull****! animals should not be tested on..... if you want subjects to test on, there are many many many criminals in jails that are there for life, use them as they dont deserve the life they have anyway. dont use innocent animals that dont even have a choice in the matter. Im sorry but I totally disagree with the cruelty involved in animal testing and you cannot say that keeping several beagles or whatever animal in a tiny cage for months is fair to them. Animal testing certainly is not a must or any sort of need. The animal does die in vain and it doesn't get to live decent life.

There are much better alternatives like i mentioned above, rather take those petty criminals and give them no choice like you do with the animals.
 
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absoulte bull****! animals should not be tested on..... if you want subjects to test on, there are many many many criminals in jails that are there for life, use them as they dont deserve the life they have anyway. dont use innocent animals that dont even have a choice in the matter. Im sorry but I totally disagree with the cruelty involved in animal testing and you cannot say that keeping several beagles or whatever animal in a tiny cage for months is fair to them.

Lol
 
lol all you want but no animal has ever harmed me the same way a human has and I completely disagree with testing on animals to save some human that doesn't give a **** about anybody but themselves in any case. there are plenty humans that can be tested on that dont deserve a life.
 
@Riax / @Space_Chief: If you happen to know someone capable identifying and resolving joint problems located in the northern burbs of Joburg, please let me know. "Specialists" I have been so far gave me all sorts of excellent advice - such as shooting cortisone, taking vitamins /Glucosamine / Chondroitin etc.

While in many other professions it is perfectly acceptable to have average or mediocre skilled professionals, in my experience I have run into many mediocre doctors who just couldn't be bothered (anymore?) keep up with medicine or care. It seems to be all about just maintaining the lifestyle and not so much about the initial purpose.

Does something like an "annual/periodic" competency check apply to medical professionals? Almost like going for periodic eye tests to keep your license?
 
lol all you want but no animal has ever harmed me the same way a human has and I completely disagree with testing on animals to save some human that doesn't give a **** about anybody but themselves in any case. there are plenty humans that can be tested on that dont deserve a life.

Couldnt agree more + 1.

Medical trials should only ever be done on Humans, there are more than enough to go around.

Unfortunately human "rights" will always trump animal rights :(
 
@Riax / @Space_Chief: If you happen to know someone capable identifying and resolving joint problems located in the northern burbs of Joburg, please let me know. "Specialists" I have been so far gave me all sorts of excellent advice - such as shooting cortisone, taking vitamins /Glucosamine / Chondroitin etc.

Your best bet, is to see which "private" academic hospital Wits or Pretoria University is associated with and seek a Rheumatology consultation there. An orthopod with "special interest" in the part of the body in question is also a possibility if the problem is purely mechanical and does not need further investigation.

While in many other professions it is perfectly acceptable to have average or mediocre skilled professionals, in my experience I have run into many mediocre doctors who just couldn't be bothered (anymore?) keep up with medicine or care. It seems to be all about just maintaining the lifestyle and not so much about the initial purpose.

Yes and no. Many of the new things you may hear are unproven and peddled on the public. They're just not used in evidence based medicine. So if a doctor looks at you in a clueless fashion, this does not imply he is incompetent. Also one can never be sure, unless one is pretty clued up in the given field, whether someone else is not keeping up. But seeing university/academic hospital associated specialists is your best bet.

Does something like an "annual/periodic" competency check apply to medical professionals? Almost like going for periodic eye tests to keep your license?

There is a system of CPD (CME) already. But as in all professions, responsibility lies with the person to keep up to date and behave professionally.

Just a point, medicine and pharmacy are no longer special "vocations". They are jobs like all other jobs. People have a responsibility to act more ethically in these jobs, sure, but one should not expect doctors as portrayed on TV.
 
Couldnt agree more + 1.

Medical trials should only ever be done on Humans, there are more than enough to go around.

Unfortunately human "rights" will always trump animal rights :(

Maybe we should stop developing meds for humans and just develop meds for animals, then.
 
Maybe we should stop developing meds for humans and just develop meds for animals, then.

I would rather have controlled stem cell / animal testing than none. When I say "controlled" I mean that it should be done in a responsible manner - there should be traceability of stem-cells/test subjects.

Not quite sure why everyone is so up in arms about animal testing - hell, we breed animals and then eat them so what's the difference to breeding animals for medicinal trials? Now someone is going to come with animal cruelty - do yourself a favor and watch Food Inc and solve that problem first. Unless we do unconventional things, we will never be able to explore new things.

Warning: If you love your meat, don't watch the above documentary - I think a hardcode carnivore would hold off on meat for a few days after that.
 
I agree there should be some sort of testing to improve things but why test on animals first? Have you seen what half the animal test labs look like and how some of those dogs and animals come out after wards? It is sickening to say the least. I agree testing should be done but it should rather be done on humans that actually dont deserve to live like I mentioned above. Those that rape babies and kids should be some of the first to be tested on.

http://www.google.co.za/imgres?hl=e...tbnh=174&tbnw=154&start=0&ndsp=19&tx=52&ty=51

http://www.google.co.za/imgres?hl=e...bnh=169&tbnw=212&start=42&ndsp=26&tx=94&ty=85

http://www.google.co.za/imgres?hl=e...bnh=174&tbnw=272&start=0&ndsp=19&tx=216&ty=71

I'm not going to actually link the pics into the post because they are so disturbing to look at, If you brave enough go and look at those animals and tell me that it is honestly worth doing that so that some human can "benefit". The worst part is the pics above are actually still pretty decent pics, I have seen much much much worse things than these :sick:

The difference between eating animals and testing on them is that some of them actually get to live a nice decent life and get cared for and sometimes get put down humanely(which i know is not the case most times :( )

But anyway animal testing is a complete different topic, lets get back on topic
 
absoulte bull****! animals should not be tested on..... if you want subjects to test on, there are many many many criminals in jails that are there for life, use them as they dont deserve the life they have anyway. dont use innocent animals that dont even have a choice in the matter. Im sorry but I totally disagree with the cruelty involved in animal testing and you cannot say that keeping several beagles or whatever animal in a tiny cage for months is fair to them. Animal testing certainly is not a must or any sort of need. The animal does die in vain and it doesn't get to live decent life.

There are much better alternatives like i mentioned above, rather take those petty criminals and give them no choice like you do with the animals.

China does prisoner testing. I had an arguement with someone where about using prisoners as test subjects. Im cool for that however the problem with prisoners the the environment and the inabilty to procedure repeatable results. With animals we can control the gene pool and hence to an extent decrease the level of biological fluctuations in vivo. We can also breed mice prone for cancer or diabetes if we wish to do tests on diabetes.

Although prisoners seem like an attractive model they will serve no more purpose than observing pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic profiles in a human model. Utterly useless for drug development

Unfortunately your average lifespan of 69 years is due to those little animals. If they didnt exist, they substract 27 years from that. Figures dont lie.

@ magicdude

Im KZN based and no longer in clinical practice. I can send you to epic orthos in KZN. One of the best is retired now (he is seriously considered one of the worlds best works in a government hospital. He occasionally flies around the world to teach the noobs how its done).

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I agree there should be some sort of testing to improve things but why test on animals first?

Animal testing is never done first. First is done is in vitro then in vivo. When doing in vivo your research is assessed by an independent board to approve the use of animals ethically. In other words if the study is of no value you wont be allowed to do animal testing.

Also the cost is ridicously high for animal testing to prevent abuse of the models. I assure you its as ethical as it can possibly be, but its a dirty job that is needed.

Oh and using prisoners is no different from taking homeless people or people no one cares about.

pictures are probably fake. Why would you need to burn a dog ? whats the point of even testing on a dog ? unless its for vet use. Primate models are not handled like that due to cross-contamination. Usually the mutalated bodies are from disecting after the animal has been euthanised.

They designed to get a sense of anger out of you with those pictures to pull you to their cause but im telling you that the medical cause is far more important
 
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I don't see a problem with animal testing at all. As long as it is done in a humane way, it should be allowed. I may have an issue with testing perfume on animals, but necessary medical treatments, are welcome.

And it should be noted that vets take advantage of human medicine. Human drugs and procedures - make their way to treatment of sick animals so that rich, middle class, pet lovers can also reap benefits. These days dogs get chemotherapy for certain cancers, antibiotics, pain meds and probably even diabetes treatment.
 
Exactly. We cant simulate the complex body so medicine doesnt have a choice in the matter.

The first doctors/anatomists where grave robbers ... because of them we have the medicine field we have today. In the far future if we are able to simulate drug testing without an animal model it will be because of the animal models themselves.

They dont die in vain.
 
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