Patch panel for home network - yay or nay?

killerbyte

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Have you thought of Ethernet Over Power?
The WD Live Wire is a great piece of kit and I would recommend it. If you need wireless at a specific location then you can plug in an AP and have wireless at that location or else you can use Ethernet to just connect the devices located near the unit. I have a friend that used these in his house and was able to stream HD over it, HOWEVER, if your house as 3-phase it can be a nightmare to get the Live Wire to work.
 

bdt

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You don't need PoE switches at all. You can add PoE injectors in the moment you decide you want it. It will be easier to buy inexpensive, but quality switch without PoE.
True dat but, as always, it's swings and roundabouts; in this case, depending on the number of PoE injectors (and whether af or at), one runs into the (relative) problem of injector and power clutter at the network hub (id est the cabinet, etcetera), that may be best sorted with a PDU (or, you know, a regular multiplug too..) to take care of the clutter ..that then needs to be managed.

Have you thought of Ethernet Over Power?
The WD Live Wire is a great piece of kit and I would recommend it. If you need wireless at a specific location then you can plug in an AP and have wireless at that location or else you can use Ethernet to just connect the devices located near the unit. I have a friend that used these in his house and was able to stream HD over it, HOWEVER, if your house as 3-phase it can be a nightmare to get the Live Wire to work.
Also an excellent, valid option ...unless network speed is a more important parameter than ease of wiring.
 

bekdik

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BTW, don't forget that wireless is half duplex, unlike wired which is full duplex.
 

bdt

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http://www.planet.com.tw/en/product/product.php?id=48416

Thinking of getting this as a start from Scoop.

Good?
From what I'm looking at, that may depend on your definition of 'good'. :eek: The 'Key Features' tab lists that it has ONE (and only one) PoE port at port 8 and the 'Specifications' tab indicates that the 5Vdc power adapter it needs is not included in the standard package - which could mean that you would have to need buying a PSU separately (id est check first!) ..and that for a unit that appears to have ONE lousy PoE port! This all falls somewhat OUTside my own personal definition of 'good'. :p

Oh, and from the site:

GSD-803PD_Rear-Panel-Introduction_L.gif
 

feo

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From what I'm looking at, that may depend on your definition of 'good'. :eek: The 'Key Features' tab lists that it has ONE (and only one) PoE port at port 8 and the 'Specifications' tab indicates that the 5Vdc power adapter it needs is not included in the standard package - which could mean that you would have to need buying a PSU separately (id est check first!) ..and that for a unit that appears to have ONE lousy PoE port! This all falls somewhat OUTside my own personal definition of 'good'. :p

Oh, and from the site:

View attachment 88975

What PoE switch do you recommend for home use?
 

bdt

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The above notwithstanding, it appears that they may have a rather funky cheat to get around the speed/power/cost problem with their 8 port gigabit passive PoE injector (am awaiting a return call to confirm). But it rather looks like the 'passive' applies to how it is not an active network device as such, but merely something that puts woema on (any) eight ports your heart desires, as coming from a completely bog-standard switch of your choice.

POE-8G.jpg
 

bdt

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What PoE switch do you recommend for home use?
They've got a very nicely priced 16-port Tenda that you may find appealing. And yes, rather go for sixteen instead of eight; I submit that in a case like this it's false economy to low-ball this ..and I'm struggling to even find one anyway.
 

sajunky

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True dat but, as always, it's swings and roundabouts; in this case, depending on the number of PoE injectors (and whether af or at), one runs into the (relative) problem of injector and power clutter at the network hub (id est the cabinet, etcetera),
In my opinion PoE switch make sense only in large installation due to the central management. For home intallation it is total overkill. You spend spend lot of money for PoE switch with IEEE 802.3at ports and your powered devices are only af, you need only R150 injector. Besides of cost, there are new emerging PoE standards integrating with 802.3az like Marvell EEPoE.
Energy Efficient Ethernet switches are already available, I would invest in one of them (they used to be be called Green Ethernet) and add appropriate injectors later, matching power receiving device. Cable clutter is a valid point, it is matter of chosing what is more important.
 
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feo

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At the moment I have nothing in my house that uses PoE and I guess these switches will drop in price over time once I'm ready to install IP cameras and whatnot.

I didn't think a 16 port switch would cost a lot given that it really doesn't do much other than extend the number of available ethernet connections. Guess I was wrong. Was looking to spend a grand max on a 16 port switch + patch panel.
 

sajunky

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Consider dedicated switch for cameras, it can be added later. In such case 8-port switch should be sufficient. Aggregated traffic from number of cameras should fit in one Gigabit link to the main switch. Dedicated switch gives extra protection for lightning (important for wirings outside of the house). One lightning protector for this link (not separate for each camera).
Just make proper patch panel to accomodate all connections.
 

feo

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They've got a very nicely priced 16-port Tenda that you may find appealing. And yes, rather go for sixteen instead of eight; I submit that in a case like this it's false economy to low-ball this ..and I'm struggling to even find one anyway.

Will this work with CAT6?

Specs only mention up to 5e.
 

bdt

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Don't worry about it; it's kinda like (car) tyres - you can always go for the better/more expensive kit even if there's no purpose to it (think z-rated on a Geely). That said, CAT5/e *is* design-limited to 100MHz bandwidth and is good for the 100TX to GbE transition while CAT6 has 250 MHz bandwidth capability (and 500 MHz with 6a), and if you're looking at high-bandwidth usage - like HDMI over Ethernet - you're going with (have gone with...) CAT6. Oh, and they only partly put the spec down there, you'll likely find that CAT6 is encapsulated in the "1000-Base-T".
 

bdt

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The above notwithstanding, it appears that they may have a rather funky cheat to get around the speed/power/cost problem with their 8 port gigabit passive PoE injector (am awaiting a return call to confirm). But it rather looks like the 'passive' applies to how it is not an active network device as such, but merely something that puts woema on (any) eight ports your heart desires, as coming from a completely bog-standard switch of your choice.

View attachment 88977
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

So, having (had to, they failed at returning my call yesterday (but hey, work ends tomorrow, right?)) called them, and gotten some sense out of Guy in CPT (thank you again for your time), this is a thing I will never ever (EVER!) bring near any network of mine. It turns out that, aside from needing being to be fed power (obviously, it's an injector) it's passive all right, and dangerously (to your equipment) so, it:
  • is NOT a network device, like a switch would be; it is invisible to the network a ghost (that shunts woema onto the wire) - so passive in the network device sense.
  • has NO, none at all, integrated power intelligence, which is the the very essence (pdf, see graph on p20) of the 802.3 standard, it blindly, dumbly - passively - shunts power (itself a value derived from voltage AND current) onto the wire. To devices that are expecting the handshake sequence in order to power up.
  • has no internal power management/regulation (guess derived from conversation): you feed it an input DC voltage, 12-48Vdc per their site, and ALL of that power is available on the wire - brute force, with no control. Related: it's apparently passive about just what VOLTS go on the wire, with there being a direct one-to-one relationship to input voltage, so: 12Vdc out for 12Vdc in, up to 48Vdc out for 48Vdc in; it seems this thing has no DC-DC converter to jack the input voltage up to the PoE standard (but then it apparently has nearly nothing in it anyway)
Here's another visual for the handshake:

PowerInt_POE_Fig4.gif

As if that weren't enough, they barely know about how (potentially) dangerous this thing is to the unschooled, they carry no warning on the product page, nothing about "Use this 8 Port Passive PoE injector to power up 8 Passive GIGABIT PoE devices through a single power source. Ideal for powering AP's, IP cameras or VoIP phones. Power by DC jack or Terminal Block connector" (sic) carries any warning about its shortcomings.

And then they have no power for it anyway, you have to go and find one yourself somewhere else and mate to this monster; which you can, quite easily, from your local electronics supplier, here a 150W/48Vdc PSU, easily good enough for eight 802.3af devices which, at 350mA/node, want a total of 2.8A. But 802.3at devices, with their 600mA tendencies at a 4.8A demand would swamp this thing (pdf); no, to power a full house of .at devices, you would have to go up to this beastie. (pdf) And both of those PSUs will just dump their full, regulated power onto the line, as designed. To devices that want an introduction before they wake up and work.

TL;DR: this thing is an utterly uncertified, non-compliant device that is an excellent, unnecessarily expensive (in terms of time and hassle) and entertainingly easy, way to blow (expensive) equipment up.

That said, if you are suitably careful it may be feasible, maybe with this PoE passive splitter to pull the power off the wire at the PD end, and feed it the usual, expected power through its DC jack ..but why would you when it's just simpler and safer to go with properly certified hardware?
 

sajunky

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What do you expect?
1. It doesn't say it is 802.3af/at compliant, so don't expect it is.
2. How you would expect +/-200W power supply in such small box? In contrary to your expectations it says:
"Power by DC jack or Terminal Block connector" and "Output Power: Depends on Input Power", it is very clear that there is no regulator inside.
3. Have yet to look at these negotiations issues. Most power injectors (pre 802.3at) do not negotiate at all, they simply supply as much power as possible.
 

bdt

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What do you expect?
1. It doesn't say it is 802.3af/at compliant, so don't expect it is.
2. How you would expect +/-200W power supply in such small box? In contrary to your expectations it says:
"Power by DC jack or Terminal Block connector" and "Output Power: Depends on Input Power", it is very clear that there is no regulator inside.
3. Have yet to look at these negotiations issues. Most power injectors (pre 802.3at) do not negotiate at all, they simply supply as much power as possible.
Okay:
  1. I concede I assumed about compliance (and what that means), but there also isn't anything there explicitly stating that this thing is NOT compliant, and what that can mean; I aim to expose this shortcoming here. In contrast, the Ligo-PSU that explicitly *does* state standard compliance.
  2. Your turn to assume, read that again: I said "they have no power for it anyway, you have to go and find one yourself somewhere else". Which has nothing to do with internal power and more to do with they have no PSUs to sell *with* it. Here this is about the lack of "power intelligence", if you will; something like a DC-DC converter that will allow for feeding it with a (much more commonly available) 12Vdc PSU. Also "power" is a secondary unit, derived from voltage and current; it is entirely possible that a 12Vdc input can result in a 48Vdc output.
  3. Slow down there pilgrim, I have a story for you: I've had an offline airCam here (so, that bloody annoying 24V "standard", that you can get around with a wee 48/24 converter). Anyhow, these things can be REALLY annoying to reset and I got the moer in with the ladderlympics-PC run to see if the damn thing had reset. So I brought it down and jacked it straight into my switch - and potentially (heh) 48V. Nothing happened (including the escape of the smoke-genie) for the moments it took for me to realise that feeding a 24V camera with 48V is *REALLY* not a good idea! But when I put it back on the lee side of its power converter it promptly came to life and I could reset, and finally reprogram it. Which rather makes the case for my 802.3af switch having correctly sensed that it had a non-compliant device and refused to push the woema. Note that I recognise that *you* said "injector" and I'm saying "switch". Also, the only (discrete, non-switch) injectors I've ever used were the ALFA PD-1000Ds back when Scoop still sold them.
Point being it's THAT easy to momentarily overlook something and end up with blown hardware; and why it's both better to stay with certified hardware ..and know, for bloody sure, when something is not.
 

sajunky

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Stay with certified hardware and pay fortune. As I said, good for large installations with central power management, not for home users. Above injector should work with majority PoE devices.

Ad 1. Meet a real life boy. Everybody on this forum can confirm this, there are three marketing rules:

A. If doesn't say 'compliant', is not.
B. If does say 'compliant', but doesn't say 'certified', is not 'certified' and it might be even not 'compliant'.
C. If does say 'certified', but doesn't give certification details, the same as above.

Ad 2. It was clear for me that there was no power regulator in this device and you need to connect power supply. If you are surprised and expected something else, it is your problem, as information provided on the WEB site was 100% correct. As a bonus, it makes it more universal, it would work with non-standard hardware, like your airCAM.

Ad 3. Would you consider that your airCAM is normally powered 24V, but 48V tolerant? Honestly, it is my bet. Besides, I don't think 'negotiation' is to prevent blowing up non-standard equipment, as standard power is from 44V up, not less. Negotiation is for something else like increasing voltage above 48V. But you have figured out as above, I have no comment on that, just serving other users (who read this crap) with correct information (not imagination or assumptions). :)
 
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