petrol or diesel

BCO

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Thanks, found some other info on the web. Your original sweeping statement is still bullcrap. :D

What "sweeping statement"? Per litre of fuel consumed, diesels pollute more than petrols. Period. Even taking into account diesels' better fuel economy, they emit more pollutants in every area besides CO2.
 

BCO

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A while ago I asked the editor of Green Car Congress some questions on this subject.

My questions:

1. What is it about the emissions of a diesel engine that make it worse than a petrol engine? Is it simply the quantity of gases emitted or is it the chemical composition of the gases that's worse than in a petrol car?
2. Does the increased fuel efficiency of a diesel car mitigate its more harmful emissions entirely or only in part? In other words, is a diesel car that consumes 6 litres/100km typically better for the environment than a petrol car that consumes 8 litres/100km?
3. Does the refinery process favour the environmental friendliness of each fuel type? Are the processes involved in creating petrol more harmful to the environment than the processes in making diesel.

The answers:

As background, there are two sets of emissions we need to consider: first are the "criteria" or "toxic" emissions. These are regulated. Second are the CO2 emissions--these are not regulated, at lest, not yet.

1. In general, diesel has two main areas of criteria emissions concern compared to gasoline engines: oxides of nitrogen (NOx--which contribute to smog) and particulate matter (PM, also called soot). Both are demonstrated to have bad health effects. Diesels emit more of each than a petrol engine, due to the nature of the combustion process.

Emissions regulations for cars used to treat each as a separate category. That has changed in the US, however, with the current emissions regulations--diesels and petrol cars have the same "tailpipe out" emissions criteria to meet, regardless of the size of the engine. In other words, regardless of the car size or power, they all have to meet the criteria of their category. (Bigger vehicles and diesels thus end up spending more on their exhaust aftertreatment solutions...) In Europe, however, the two are still treated as separate. While the PM standards will be the same, the diesel standards for NOx are more lenient than the petrol standards. In other words, the same car model will emit more NOx as a diesel than as a petrol car.

So the specific answer to #1 is that its the quantity. NOx is NOx, diesels just emit more of it.

2. The increased fuel efficiency of the diesel doesn't really affect the tailpipe out emissions in that cars are built to meet the standards for their category. Standards are specified in so many grams of a pollutant emitted per kilometer. There are some variations, and some ultra-low emissions categories that automakers can shoot for, but again, for most cars currently, the amount of emissions out the tailpipe is specified by the regulations. Automakers build to that spec. Where diesel's efficiency DOES make a big difference, however, is in CO2 emissions. Because diesels burn less fuel for a comparable power output, they emit less carbon dioxide than current petrol engines.

So, to get specific. The current Euro 4 regulations for passenger cars specify 0.25 g/km NOx for diesels, 0.08 g/km for petrol. Assuming you have a Euro 4 car, then, with, say, 20,000km annual driving, you'd produce 5kg of NOx in a diesel, and 1.6 kg of NOx in a petrol car. But taking your 6 and 8 liter numbers, you'd produce about 3,180 kg of CO2 in the diesel, vs. about 3,800 kg CO2 for petrol.

3. This is a very tough question, because so much depends on the nature of the crude oil going in to the refinery. The more sulfur the oil contains, and heavier it is, the more effort has to go into the refining processes...the more energy required to process it (with associated CO2 emissions, etc.). In general, the easiest (read least energy intensive) process is refining light, sweet (low sulfur) crude to gasoline. Unfortunately, there's not much light sweet crude left. (The chief engineer at Shell US told me recently that while a few years ago they could get 10 times the energy out of a barrel of petrol compared to what they put in to processing it, with the tar sands crude that's now hitting refineries in the US, they're expecting maybe 1-2 times. That's a huge swing, and reflects the increasing effort going into ALL refining. Basically, refining is a process of breaking up the amazing number of complex hydrocarbon chains in crude oil into a variety of products, that essentially vary by weight. The lighter hydrocarbons (kerosene, petrol), the middle distillates (diesel), and the really heavy nasty stuff that ends up in asphalt and coke. You can tweak the relative amounts of output by successively upgrading heavier product into lighter using heat, hydrogen and different catalysts.

However, there is a recent update to the Well-to-Wheels lifecycle analysis for the European context that suggests the following:

"Whereas the total amount of energy (and other resources) used by refineries is well documented, there is no simple, non-controversial way to allocate energy, emissions or cost to a specific product. Distributing the resources used in refining amongst the various products invariably involves the use of arbitrary allocation keys that can have a major influence on the results. More to the point, such a simplistic allocation method ignores the complex interactions, constraints, synergies within a refinery and also between the different refineries in a certain region and is likely to lead to misleading conclusions. From an energy and GHG emissions point of view, this is also likely to give an incomplete picture as it ignores overall changes in energy/carbon content of feeds and products....We thus considered that, in the context of this study, the energy and GHG emissions associated with production and use of conventional fuels should be representative of how the EU refineries would have to adapt to a marginal reduction of demand."

"From this analysis it appears that, in Europe, marginal diesel fuel is more energy-intensive than marginal gasoline. In recent years Europe has seen an unprecedented growth in diesel fuel demand while gasoline has been stagnating or even dropping. According to all forecasts, this trend will continue in future years, driven by increased dieselization of the personal car and the growth of freight transport in line with GDP."

This report is available here http://ies.jrc.cec.eu.int/media/scr.../H04/Well_to_Wheels/WTT/WTT_Report_010307.pdf
 

Sensorei

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Diesel. I drive a golf 5 tdi and also did all the maths. If you are doing 40000km a year you would save almost R50000 over 4 years on fuel over a golf 5 gti. R12000 more for services yes but that still leaves around R38000 more spent with the petrol engine.
 

BCO

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Diesel. I drive a golf 5 tdi and also did all the maths. If you are doing 40000km a year you would save almost R50000 over 4 years on fuel over a golf 5 gti. R12000 more for services yes but that still leaves around R38000 more spent with the petrol engine.

What's the difference in fuel consumption?
 

UtterNutter

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I am a diesel convert. But not because of the better economy... but because of the MOFO TORQUE!

500 Nm FTMFW!

(still like petrol though)
 

Palimino

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Don't the fancy diesels have all kinds of electronic management systems now?

If you are right, I still fancy diesel. I also assume that, in the event of EMP, a diesel will degrade gracefully. You will lose your electronic management system and any electronic peripherals, but the engine will continue running (only less efficiently).
 

HapticSimian

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If you are right, I still fancy diesel. I also assume that, in the event of EMP, a diesel will degrade gracefully. You will lose your electronic management system and any electronic peripherals, but the engine will continue running (only less efficiently).

1 problem with your theory - electronic fuel pump. :eek:
 

Sensorei

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What's the difference in fuel consumption?

My average in my tdi is 6.2l/100km I think VW claim 5.7 but ja... My mates GTI is 9.5l/100km. My brothers gf's Polo TDI averages 5.6l/100km combined urban/highway.
 

HapticSimian

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My average in my tdi is 6.2l/100km I think VW claim 5.7 but ja... My mates GTI is 9.5l/100km. My brothers gf's Polo TDI averages 5.6l/100km combined urban/highway.

Did a trip from Joey's to Hibberdene a couple of years back with a 2.0TDI Touran - 4 people plus enough luggage to exclude the possibility of fitting an extra roll of toilet paper.

Filled up here, drove down & spent 3 days driving around Hibberdene. Filled up on day 4, after driving the almost 100km back to Durbs. And the trip down was more low flying than driving. I know it's downhill, but still...
 

Palimino

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1 problem with your theory - electronic fuel pump. :eek:

This is bad, bad, bad design. So, the only thing preventing a vehicle running (it may be military) during EMP where transport can be considered vital, is an ‘electronic fuel pump’? “The ship is lost for a ha’porth of tar.”
 

I am Penguin

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Diesel! if you get stuck in a rural area you can always raid the nearest farm or look for a fish and chips shop.
 

Other Pineapple Smurf

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Well you Diesel fanbois neglected to notice the part where he was not going to tow during the 40'000km pa. While I'm a closet diesel fanboi, petrol is the better choice to meet the current requirements for Robertvv.

Hey, if you want to pull heavy loads (trailer or even onboard) up steep gradients all day then diesel is king, but for general use (even long distance) then petrol is just better.

But Robertvv, I think it would also come down to how much are you prepared to pay! Are you looking for a car or bakkie? These are all factors that you should take into consideration before deciding on the petrol vs diesel.
 

Sensorei

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A 2.0 Golf/Audi TDI with a software remap gives 400NM of torque! That's more than a chipped Golf 6 GTI. You gotta feel the diesel power.
 

upup

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I will buy a car. If buying a bakkie, it will have to be double cab. They give you 10 km per liter.
a car, 12 km/l. [1600cc]
I heard that the Jetta diesel is lazy/ slow.

On the above report I see they tend to go for more diesel in the future, but fact is, for every liter of crude oil, you get your shares of fuels.
In Europe you pays extra tax for driving a diesel.

my current car, a Astra, got 250 000 kms on clock, no problems yet and I am going to keep it.
My next car will most probably follow the same route.
 

Palimino

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I will buy a car. If buying a bakkie, it will have to be double cab. They give you 10 km per liter.
a car, 12 km/l. [1600cc]
I heard that the Jetta diesel is lazy/ slow.

On the above report I see they tend to go for more diesel in the future, but fact is, for every liter of crude oil, you get your shares of fuels.
In Europe you pays extra tax for driving a diesel.

my current car, a Astra, got 250 000 kms on clock, no problems yet and I am going to keep it.
My next car will most probably follow the same route.

A Faraday cage may protect vital electronic components from EMP. But mechanics stuffing around won’t keep the integrity of the cage intact for very long (if they even know how). Another issue to be considered, are the impacts of climate change and fuel independence. This is the holy grail for future fuels. There is such an established base of internal combustion engines (infrastructure, etc.) that only the rich can afford electric/hybrid vehicles. Bio-diesel is the only practical option. A diesel engine, with very little modification, will be able to burn a variety of fuels. Petrol may be more energy intensive, but it is limiting (and may become horrendously expensive if it becomes an ‘exotic’ fuel).

Viva! Diesel. Viva!
 
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