Piracy is not theft

The 'someone who downloads it illegal never intended to buy it so no money is lost' strawman.

If you are downloading it, you clearly want it, otherwise why download it?
If there was no other means of getting it, yes, you absolutely would have paid for it, but you can get it for free, so why pay?

The creator loses nothing? Really?
They also have rent to pay, families to feed and bills that pile up. They put their time into creating it and then you take that time for nothing.

Maybe your boss should just not pay you for a few hours a week that you are there, because, why not?
It's just your time you are putting in.

And no
You have no right to something that is region locked. The creator gave rights to a certain company to broadcast or stream their product and if they have region locks, that is their right, because they paid for that right.
You paid for nothing and are therefore entitled to jack ****.
 
Beyond.Celsus said:
As previously stated.
If you can't get it here legally, not watching it won't kill you. you will be okay if you miss a marvel series. I promise.
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Of course not, won't kill me.

But I would argue that hurts the artists in the long run. Fans sharing a product not available in their own country builds a fan base and demand in that country until the legal route becomes available. The Japanese Anime and Manga industry is growing internationally and earning money via netflix now but if the fans who did not have access in their language or country had not infringed on copyrights for a good while that market would never have developed in the first place. The manga industry especially recognizes this and for years did little to quell online fansubs and only really pushed it hard once they launched their own English translations internationally for instance.

They still largely realize people seldom buy a manga volume from the publisher until after they have first tried it out online and read a few on a fansub website to see if they like it.

It is not always black and white. As stated earlier by me had I not been able to pirate as a poor child with almost no money I would not be spending thousands in the gaming industry today as an adult. Sometimes you want to be forward thinking. Perfect enforcement of copyright would hurt the artists in some ways as it would lower their overall fan base, viral marketing of their product, etc. There is a balance in there.

So yes, someone profiting from a copy right material when they have no right to do so I am more than happy to throw in jail. Me watching pirated stuff when there is no reasonable legal route for me to get it costs the artist nothing and in the long run may actually help them as when the legal route is finally established as a fan I will be far more likely to subscribe immediately because I know the quality of the content and its an easy decision. I may have also spread the word and gotten that copyright holder many paying fans while it was still illegal here.
 
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Cius said:
Of course not, won't kill me.

But I would argue that hurts the artists in the long run. Fans sharing a product not available in their own country builds a fan base and demand in that country until the legal route becomes available. The Japanese Anime and Manga industry is growing internationally and earning money via netflix now but if the fans who did not have access in their language or country had not infringed on copyrights for a good while that market would never have developed in the first place. The manga industry especially recognizes this and for years did little to quell online fansubs and only really pushed it hard once they launched their own English translations internationally for instance.

They still largely realize people seldom buy a manga volume from the publisher until after they have first tried it out online and read a few on a fansub website to see if they like it.

It is not always black and white. As stated earlier by me had I not been able to pirate as a poor child with almost no money I would not be spending thousands in the gaming industry today as an adult. Sometimes you want to be forward thinking. Perfect enforcement of copyright would hurt the artists in some ways as it would lower their overall fan base, viral marketing of their product, etc. There is a balance in there.

So yes, someone profiting from a copy right material when they have no right to do so I am more than happy to throw in jail. Me watching pirated stuff when there is no reasonable legal route for me to get it costs the artist nothing and in the long run may actually help them as when the legal route is finally established as a fan I will be far more likely to subscribe immediately because I know the quality of the content and its an easy decision. I may have also spread the word and gotten that copyright holder many paying fans while it was still illegal here.
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It was the artists choice who is allowed to distribute their creation.
Maybe they got a great deal from the distributor?

After paying for the rights, the distributer can distribute it where they want to or not want to.
Yes, it is entirely black and white.

Manga - Shonen jump releases free editions for people to read.
Games - Demo's, free trials

Pirate as a poor child with almost no money, but had a PC to play games. Come on. Really? That's not poor.

I pirated when I was younger as well. And yes, that absolutely means I was a thief.
I'm not arguing about piracy to point fingers.

I just want people who used to or still pirate to fecking admit that they are or were stealing.
 
wizardofid said:
But you said hypothetically private use, you and I know that isnt how the world works, there is going to be indirect and direct losses regardless.If there is a person that uses it for private use there is equally someone using it for profit.So your hypothetical question is BS there is always losses at some point or another.
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There are hypothetical private and hypothetical commercial use cases. Trying to force everyone to not "pirate" is urinating into the wind.

wizardofid said:
Your not intentionally doing it, but your posts come across as piracy never hurts anyone, if you are implying it, then shyte dude South Africa is the safest place in the world.
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Which is why I differentiate in those posts between private use and commercial gain.
 
rambo919 said:
There are hypothetical private and hypothetical commercial use cases. Trying to force everyone to not "pirate" is urinating into the wind.


Which is why I differentiate in those posts between private use and commercial gain.
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Yes but you are implying private use isn't hurting any one, that is where we disagree and we are going to hit an impasse, it is going to end up in a long winded argument about whose opinion is more valid and we get nowhere fast. So lets not do it, it is Monday and I need a second cup of coffee.

If I can get you to agree, whether private or commercial directly or indirectly there are losses then I will be more then happy, but you seem to be implying there is NO losses ever and that is BS.

And @Beyond.Celsus isn't wrong if you have downloaded some thing you wanted it in the first place, it is pretty black and white, piracy isn't a grey area, infringement of copyright for "personal" use isn't a grey area.

Pretty much like kicking you in the balls, you have the right not to be assaulted, if I pay someone else to kick you in the balls doesn't make it any different it is still assault.

Piracy and copyrights is well established and the laws surrounding it well defined, much like the laws surrounding assault. Everyone takes laws surrounding assault serious enough, there are those that ignore it and there is consequences to those actions.

Because it seems piracy and copyright laws are toothless, doesn't make them any less valid then laws prohibiting the assault of another person. Nor is it a "victimless crime".

I am going to start walking down the street and assault every person I see with a baseball bat as I believe it to be a "victimless crime"....
 
Anyone here who's old enough to remember recording ANYTHING on VHS or cassette may as well see themselves out, the filthy pirates.

Always found that odd: if we weren't meant to record music or video (created by someone else, and most definitely copyrighted) then why has the media to do so existed for decades? And been completely legal to buy and own. It's not like "piracy" only started when the Internet came into existence.
 
Beyond.Celsus said:
A creators bills are not strawman.

You trying to explain away your theft most certainly is.

But, that is between you and your God.
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Your strawman revolves about the person (which some freely admit to being) that both has the ability to pay and refuses..... being the only kind of person that pirates.

You assert that everyone pirates as an alternative to paying because some do.

All doctors are human thus all humans are doctors.

That aside the bills of the creators have nothing to do with whether or not people pay for their products. You are trying to evade logic and practical market dynamics with emotion.

I can turn this around, just because someone builds a machine that no one is willing to pay for and he goes into debt to finance it..... does this mean he is morally obligated to price his product heavier even though that will make people less likely to pay?

You can put any price you want on something.... it does not matter how much it cost to create it.... what matters is how much the customer is willing to pay. If it cost R5m to create something and no one is willing to pay more than R2.5m for it.... chances are it's actual market value is closer to R2m. You can go on and on about production cost and guilt tripping potential customers but good luck convincing anyone to pay you R5m or more.
 
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The Voice said:
Anyone here who's old enough to remember recording ANYTHING on VHS or cassette may as well see themselves out, the filthy pirates.

Always found that odd: if we weren't meant to record music or video (created by someone else, and most definitely copyrighted) then why has the media to do so existed for decades? And been completely legal to buy and own. It's not like "piracy" only started when the Internet came into existence.
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You are supposed to record your own music and video, not copy somebody else's.
 
rambo919 said:
Your strawman revolves about the person (which some freely admit to being) that both has the ability to pay and refuses..... being the only kind of person that pirates.

You assert that everyone pirates as an alternative to paying because some do.

All doctors are human thus all humans are doctors.

That aside the bills of the creators have nothing to do with whether or not people pay for their products. You are trying to evade logic and practical market dynamics with emotion.

I can turn this around, just because someone builds a machine that no one is willing to pay for and he goes into debt to finance it..... does this mean he is morally obligated to price his product heavier even though that will make people less likely to pay?

You can put any price you want on something.... it does not matter how much it cost to create it.... what matters is how much the customer is willing to pay. If it cost R5m to create something and no one is willing to pay more than R2.5m for it.... chances are it's actual market value is closer to R2m. You can go on and on about production cost and guilt tripping potential customers but good luck convincing anyone to pay you R5m or more.
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Ummm, what?
So if you do not pirate, because you don't want to pay, why are you pirating?

Because you can't afford it? And if you can't afford it you automatically have the right to take it for free?

No, You don't
If someone manufactures a piece of machinery and puts a price on it nobody can afford and goes into debt, that's his own fault.

Still does not mean you have the right to steal it, because you 'feel' it's too expensive.
 
Beyond.Celsus said:
You are supposed to record your own music and video, not copy somebody else's.
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Either media producers were completely naive when sales went through the roof in assuming that we were all running around with camcorders or were in bands, or they knew EXACTLY what we were all really doing.
 
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The Voice said:
Either media producers were completely naive when sales went through the roof in assuming that we were all running around with camcorders or were in bands, or they knew EXACTLY what we were all really doing.
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Sure.

Does not mean you aren't stealing somebody else's work though.
 
wizardofid said:
Yes but you are implying private use isn't hurting any one, that is where we disagree and we are going to hit an impasse, it is going to end up in a long winded argument about whose opinion is more valid and we get nowhere fast. So lets not do it, it is Monday and I need a second cup of coffee.

If I can get you to agree, whether private or commercial directly or indirectly there are losses then I will be more then happy, but you seem to be implying there is NO losses ever and that is BS.
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You cannot loose what you neither had or ever will have had..... you cannot loose projected profit.

I have never paid full price for a game, never will. No game is worth R1k or more to me, and most of the R400 one's are worthless to me. If I get to a point where it's worth what I am willing to pay, I pay. Just because I waited for the R1k game to go down to R300.... does that mean the publisher lost R700?

Either way I pirate the game.... I have never, except once out of curiosity, played a game through it's launcher. I always play pirated and firewalled versions. Here too I am not following the lisence rules but the publisher still gets what the market decides the product is worth.

wizardofid said:
And @Beyond.Celsus isn't wrong if you have downloaded some thing you wanted it in the first place, it is pretty black and white, piracy isn't a grey area, infringement of copyright for "personal" use isn't a grey area.

Pretty much like kicking you in the balls, you have the right not to be assaulted, if I pay someone else to kick you in the balls doesn't make it any different it is still assault.

Piracy and copyrights is well established and the laws surrounding it well defined, much like the laws surrounding assault. Everyone takes laws surrounding assault serious enough, there are those that ignore it and there is consequences to those actions.

Because it seems piracy and copyright laws are toothless, doesn't make them any less valid then laws prohibiting the assault of another person. Nor is it a "victimless crime".

I am going to start walking down the street and assault every person I see with a baseball bat as I believe it to be a "victimless crime"....
Click to expand...
There is a difference between some kind of immeasurable (objectively) desire and ability to pay or even belief of what something is worth.

It's not a victimless crime if it's not a crime to begin with.
 
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Beyond.Celsus said:
Ummm, what?
So if you do not pirate, because you don't want to pay, why are you pirating?

Because you can't afford it? And if you can't afford it you automatically have the right to take it for free?

No, You don't
If someone manufactures a piece of machinery and puts a price on it nobody can afford and goes into debt, that's his own fault.

Still does not mean you have the right to steal it, because you 'feel' it's too expensive.
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It's not stealing if I am taking nothing away from someone.

Your arguments are all attempts to force physical rules unto abstract concepts.

If I was never going to give money to the publisher.... then how did the publisher loose money? How is it theft?
 
rambo919 said:
It's not stealing if I am taking nothing away from someone.

Your arguments are all attempts to force physical rules unto abstract concepts.

If I was never going to give money to the publisher.... then how did the publisher loose money? How is it theft?
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Because it is not yours.
It's very simple.
 
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