Please support AMD

[Sapphiron]

It seems that you realise that you're wrong, but are just too stubborn to admit it! Did you misread what killadoob wrote? The E2140 (bottom of the range) + any decent mobo (overclocking ability) = faster than AMD's top of the range CPU plus whatever mobo you care to stick with it.

And then, with that same mobo, you can go and buy yourself a Q600, and seriously wip the AMD, or, if you win the lottery, the QX9650!

Unless you're a serious fanboy (which it seems you are) there is no viable reason to buy AMD for your PC!




IMO...

Hey, I'm no fanboy. I own a Q6600. at 3Ghz overclock it owns yes, but I hate the fact that I need a R1700 700W power supply to run it with my 8800 and The motherboard chipset (NF 680i) puts out more heat than a Entry level CPU.

I still believe that for cheap stuff, AMD still has the better platform. Performance is not only CPU speed, but also other components.

The boards ARE cheaper when you compare equivalent features. Yes you can get a R600 Intel board, but then you get 2 ram slots, 2 sata's, 100mbit network and only 18 PCI-E lanes on the motherboard. With the AMD for R600, you get 4 ram slots, 4 sata's, HDMI, gigabit Lan (200mbit PCI based Gigabit is not gigabit), RAID and no onboard DVI

Lets compare ASUS boards (since they are popular and have a wide range of boards for both brands)

Entry level (less than R700 retail):
ASUS M2N-VM HDMI - R700
http://www.asus.com.tw/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=101&l3=496&l4=0&model=1585&modelmenu=1
vs
ASUS P5L-MX - R700
http://www.asus.com.tw/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=194&model=1320&modelmenu=1
with the P5L you LOOSE the following:
PCI-E based Gigabit LAN
Onboard graphics capable of playing the odd game of Sims or WOW.
Onboard DVI - big bonus for those with LCD's
2 ram slots.
RAID
Firewire
Optical Out Audio
HDMI
TV-out
Quad Core capability


Midrange (less than R1400):
ASUS M3A - R980

ASUS P5K - R1490
http://www.asus.com.tw/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=534&l4=0&model=1637&modelmenu=1
The boards are very equal in features, with the P5K leading slightly thanks to it's esata, but the M3A has a faster PCI-E v2 slot so it's has better upgradability in term of graphics and has RAID on it's internal ports (unlike the external only on the P5K).
The biggest problem is the P5K is 50% more expensive than the M3A. plus if you upgrade in 2009 or even late in 2008, you will need to replace your baord and ram, as Intel's P35 chipset will be useless with the new processors by then.

High end: (no price limit without going berserk)
MSI K9A Platinum - R2000 (asus does not have M3A32 boards on market yet)
http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=1332&maincat_no=1&cat2_no=171
ASUS P5E3 - R 3000
http://www.asus.com.tw/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0&model=1873&modelmenu=1

Although the P5E3 uses the 3-5% faster DDR3 ram, the ram is 200% more expensive. The boards are otherwise evenly matched in terms of the important specifications. They why is the P5E R1000 more expensive and use more power? a R1000 is the difference between a dual 1.6 CPU and a Quad 2.4Ghz CPU, or a 500GB hard drive.

Obviously the above is not the start and end of the discussion, but the above boards are a reasonable indication I believe. Quite a different picture from 5 months ago, when AMD did not have their newest chipsets out.

 

[ShockG]

Um. Wrong. Weither the board is compatible with AM2+ or AM3 is down to chipset and if the Board Manufacturer updates the microcode with a BIOS update. All AMD chipset boards would work out of the box, Nvidia chipset ones need a BIOS update. ATM the only ones that don't work are the VIA based ones. And AM3 processors will fit in AM2 boards. They are building a DDR2 and DDR3 memory controller into the CPU.



Except some old boards with VIA chipsets.



Rectron
Rectron does not do AMD anymore. Intel Bought them out.
Prices are much closer than that: AMD is R511 vs R485.
Even the Pro Intel Tomshardware rates the 4000+ as faster as the 2140.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=936&model2=884&chart=419

sigh....
pay attention please
I have tried a Phenom 9500 on about 3 boards including an RD580 based MSI board and the CPU was a no go. So far the only boards that work with the Phenom are the RD790 based boards, like the rare as hen's teeth K9A2 Platinum board, the Gigabyte MA790FX boards etc... Point is their all AM2+ boards with the RD790 chipset.

And yes I did try bios updates, but nothing worked and that includes the Abit AN9-32X Fatal1ty which was a premium AM2 board but will not support Phenom. This will get sorted out eventually, but its not promised on all AM2 boards. As for AM3, no AM3 CPU will not work on an AM2 board, AM2 doesn't support the right HT speeds. AM2+ will take an AM3 based CPU provided the CPU has DDR2 memory support which isn't promised as AM3 CPUs are mainly going to be for the DDR3 platform.

Hey, I'm no fanboy. I own a Q6600. at 3Ghz overclock it owns yes, but I hate the fact that I need a R1700 700W power supply to run it with my 8800 and The motherboard chipset (NF 680i) puts out more heat than a Entry level CPU.

Nope. What do the heat problems of the NF680 chipset have to do with Intel as a platform?
BTW I used 2x8800GTS 640MB and X6800 @ 4.5GHz+ to claim some SA records in 2006 all on a 650Watt Enermax Noisetaker CPU with a 680i based mobo (Striker) so no you don't need a 700Watt PSU for a Q6600 and a 8800 Ultra even. Try again

On your comparison of high end boards. Do you have any idea how much the Asus AM2 Crossfire ROG board is? It's R3.5K and that's still a DDR2 board. Compare like with like, don't tip the scales by using memory type. Try comparing the P5K Premium Wi-Fi (DDR2) against the GB MA790FX-DQ6 and then say again that for an equivalent board AMD is cheaper.

One last thing, AMD RD790 chipset still isn't faster than NF590SLI from early 2006

 

[Sapphiron]

sigh....
pay attention please
I have tried a Phenom 9500 on about 3 boards including an RD580 based MSI board and the CPU was a no go. So far the only boards that work with the Phenom are the RD790 based boards, like the rare as hen's teeth K9A2 Platinum board, the Gigabyte MA790FX boards etc... Point is their all AM2+ boards with the RD790 chipset.

And yes I did try bios updates, but nothing worked and that includes the Abit AN9-32X Fatal1ty which was a premium AM2 board but will not support Phenom. This will get sorted out eventually, but its not promised on all AM2 boards. As for AM3, no AM3 CPU will not work on an AM2 board, AM2 doesn't support the right HT speeds. AM2+ will take an AM3 based CPU provided the CPU has DDR2 memory support which isn't promised as AM3 CPUs are mainly going to be for the DDR3 platform.


Nope. What do the heat problems of the NF680 chipset have to do with Intel as a platform?
BTW I used 2x8800GTS 640MB and X6800 @ 4.5GHz+ to claim some SA records in 2006 all on a 650Watt Enermax Noisetaker CPU with a 680i based mobo (Striker) so no you don't need a 700Watt PSU for a Q6600 and a 8800 Ultra even. Try again

On your comparison of high end boards. Do you have any idea how much the Asus AM2 Crossfire ROG board is? It's R3.5K and that's still a DDR2 board. Compare like with like, don't tip the scales by using memory type. Try comparing the P5K Premium Wi-Fi (DDR2) against the GB MA790FX-DQ6 and then say again that for an equivalent board AMD is cheaper.

One last thing, AMD RD790 chipset still isn't faster than NF590SLI from early 2006

First off. most BIOS updates are still due. The chipsets are compatible. I'ts simply a case of the board vendors doing it. here is a list of compatible ASUS boards:
Asus M2A-VM HDMi
Asus M2N-VM Dvi
Asus M3A
Asus M2R32-MVP
Asus M2N-SLi Delux
Asus M2N32-SLi Delux Wireless edition
Asus M2N32-SLi Premium Vista edition with ScreenDuo
Asus M2N32-WS Professional
Asus M3A32 MVP Delux
Asus M3A32 MVP Delux/Wifi
There are other ones as well, but the BIOS's are still beta.

The 680I is a Intel Platform Chipset.

AM3 CPU's WILL work on AM2 boards (board vendor bios dependant of course, I cant help gigabyte support is carp). Hypertransport, unlike the Ancient FSB, is fully backwards compatible. Check your info before you assume. AM2 and AM2+ CPU's won't fit in AM3 boards because it won't have the dual DDR2/3 memory controller like AM3 will.

Chipsets rarely determine ultimate performance. As I recall the 875 975 X38 and X48 has almost no performance improvements from 2002. Also with the AMD performance is not determined by the chipset, since the Memory controller is on the CPU. Granted that the Nforce 570's USB ports are marginally quicker. O and it isn't RD790, it's 790FX. The RD/RS designation hasn't been used since AMD took over the branding from ATI.
R
Lastly. AMD will switch to DDR3 when it has advantages over DDR2, just like it did with the DDR1 to DDR2 switch.

DDR3 at 1600 is still beaten by DDR2 1066. DDR2 only started getting faster than DDR400 once they reached 667mhz.

 

[proximiti99]

Mmmm interesting dual.....

 

[SanchoP]

duEl

 

[ShockG]

First off. most BIOS updates are still due. The chipsets are compatible. I'ts simply a case of the board vendors doing it. here is a list of compatible ASUS boards:
Asus M2A-VM HDMi
Asus M2N-VM Dvi
Asus M3A
Asus M2R32-MVP
Asus M2N-SLi Delux
Asus M2N32-SLi Delux Wireless edition
Asus M2N32-SLi Premium Vista edition with ScreenDuo
Asus M2N32-WS Professional
Asus M3A32 MVP Delux
Asus M3A32 MVP Delux/Wifi
There are other ones as well, but the BIOS's are still beta.

Yes and mightyou have noticed that there are only Asus boards in your list. I suppose Asus is the only mobo manufacturer out there according to you.

The 680I is a Intel Platform Chipset.

And so was the RD600 from ATi, what does that have to do with anything. Intel's own 965/P35, X38 and X48 are far cooler than the 680i. Nvidia bought a license to make an Intel cpu compliant chipset period. By your reasoning AMD was to blame for the dodge chipset that was nForce1 right?

Chipsets rarely determine ultimate performance. As I recall the 875 975 X38 and X48 has almost no performance improvements from 2002. Also with the AMD performance is not determined by the chipset, since the Memory controller is on the CPU. Granted that the Nforce 570's USB ports are marginally quicker. O and it isn't RD790, it's 790FX. The RD/RS designation hasn't been used since AMD took over the branding from ATI.
R
Lastly. AMD will switch to DDR3 when it has advantages over DDR2, just like it did with the DDR1 to DDR2 switch.

DDR3 at 1600 is still beaten by DDR2 1066. DDR2 only started getting faster than DDR400 once they reached 667mhz.

Absolute rubbish and here's why

X38 is quicker than 975, fact if you don't believe me take a look at all top world records in synthetic benchmarks (Crossfire and single card obviously)
Ask any overclocker worth their salt which is quicker between 965 and P35, and tell me is any come back with 965 as the winner. Chipset makes a massive difference that's why NVIDIA, AMD,ATI etc bother with updating them. If it was all the same they wouldn't and no chipsets haven't been the same since 2002. NF4 Intel edition isn't the same as 780i chipset.

Also don't speculate about chipset performance on AMD platforms unless you've tested the platforms yourself. I have from RD580 to RD790, (yes we all know its 790FX that's why the Gigabyte board is called the MA790FX-DQ6....) NF3 250 to NF 590SLI.
Look at any review anywhere and you'll see that memory bandwidth performance on the ATI chipsets has always been behind that of the NVIDIA chipsets and same goes for the 790.

Also, USB performance has nothing to do with what we are talking about here, as USB controller is in South Bridge which has no impact on the memory sub system. The SB480 had the notorious USB performance issues as it was the South Bridge used for the first RD580 based boards. This was later sorted out with the SB600 which does not have said issues. If you're going to bring something unrelated into the debate, at least try and be correct about it.

Lastly. AMD will switch to DDR3 when it has advantages over DDR2, just like it did with the DDR1 to DDR2 switch.

DDR3 at 1600 is still beaten by DDR2 1066. DDR2 only started getting faster than DDR400 once they reached 667mhz.

No that's not the reason, you don't work at AMD so don't put your speculations forward as fact. The change from any memory type for AMD has to coincide with a change in the CPU itself unlike with Intel where the memory type is independent of the CPU. The memory controller built into the CPU is very expensive and rather intricate so it has to make economic sense before it makes performance sense to change.
It would also be worth keeping in mind that, memory sub system performance on the AMD platform is tied directly to operating frequency so the higher DDR3 speeds would be useless if the CPU speeds for the same CPU design stay below a certain threshold.

From personal testing, to get over the 11GiB/sec read/write mark for DDR2 you need at least 3GHz, which is nowhere near where the Phenom is at the moment. Even if it was there, memory performance isn't the main bottleneck in the CPU's performance right now so there's no need to change the memory controller.
It can be optimized like it was supposed to be with the Phenom with a divided 64-bit bi-directional memory crossbar, but so far this has not been the case as Phenom has a lower memory bandwidth test score than the AM2 A64 CPUs.

DDR3 at 1600 is still beaten by DDR2 1066. DDR2 only started getting faster than DDR400 once they reached 667mhz.

Nope, DDR3 1600 @ 5-5-5-15 is faster than DDR2 1066 at 4-4-4-12 I know because I've run both on the same board (one with DDR3 and one with DDR2 support)
Highest memory bandwidth score with DDR3 @ 1560MHz was 10,499MiB/sec vs 9,700MiB/sec or so with DDR2 @ 1,200MHz 4-4-4-12... So no DDR13 1600 is faster than DDR2 1066, I would think it obvious from the numbers, but....

DDR2 @ 533MHz 3-3-3-6 is going to be faster than DDR 400MHZ at 3-3-3-9 on the same platform.

As for AM3 CPU support on current AM2 boards, I'll wait and see as Phenom support itself is questionable on AM2 boards..

 

[Glordit]

getting too much to read now...

 

[killadoob]

yea we all know intel kick ass

no need to convince us with 20 pages of amd and how they are slightly cheaper but performance is sorely lacking

 

[Toko]

I've used AMD since I got my K6-2 a few years back and I've always been happy with them but I'm upgrading soon and from what I've read the core 2 duo is loads better than anything AMD has to offer so I'm getting me one of those then I'm gonna OC it

 

[Dan C]

Oc

why OC ? is it just a hobby ?

 

[The_Techie]

Hey, I'm no fanboy. I own a Q6600. at 3Ghz overclock it owns yes, but I hate the fact that I need a R1700 700W power supply to run it with my 8800 and The motherboard chipset (NF 680i) puts out more heat than a Entry level CPU.

Strange, my setup runs quite happily on a 500W PSU and produces very little heat

The 680I is a Intel Platform Chipset.

Wasn't it designed by NVIDIA, though? I always thought that's why they called it the NForce chipset? I don't know much about that, though