Programming work with unfinished degree

[Maddmatt]

In 2008 I started studying towards a Computer Science degree. It's turned into quite a mess since I left SA after my first semester and continued at 18 months at a New Zealand university. Then, instead of completing my 3rd year in NZ, I had to come back to SA.

I'm trying to finish my degree in SA now, and it's a total f**kup. If I stay here, it will take me over two years to get my degree due to differences in their course and the fact that I cant get credited for a lot of my work in NZ. That's if I can even manage the calculus here, which I don't think I can.
Going back to NZ has it's own drawback - cost. As an "international student" I pay huge fees.

I need a better option. I would like to eventually finish my degree in NZ, where I know I'll pass and not have to deal with the crap the local university puts me through. Either part time from here or maybe head to NZ, get permanent residence somehow and do it full time.

So with 2 years of a Computer Science degree, how can I get into work as a programmer? I know some Java and C++ but I think my skills here need improvement before I can do anything serious. The local university isn't helping here, since I need to put all my effort into calculus which I absolutely hate.
If possible I'd like to work as a programmer now, but I need a course or maybe a good book to get my skills up to scratch.
I've been trying to learn how to develop for Android, is it worth it?

Any advice?

 

[Raithlin]

Monash University? They're based in Oz, and may accept your NZ studies...

http://www.monashuniversity.co.za/

 

[FarligOpptreden]

Personally, I don't think there's much of a market for Android in good old ZA. Doing it as a hobby is fine though, seeing as its based on Java. Java lays a very good foundation for OOP principles - it's how I got into OOP as well. Since then my chord was struck by .NET, which I've made a career of.

Back to the topic though - unfortunately most companies won't accept an unfinished degree as any form of qualification, so you'd have to finish that first. Try and do as much hobby programming as you can, possibly building up a bit of a portfolio for yourself. Try and get some freelance work done as well - even if you have to do it all on your own cost. A credible, noteworthy portfolio will be a huge asset when you go job-hunting.

 

[stevenv]

Try and do as much hobby programming as you can

+1 but also maybe post it in the public domain for comment or give it to fellow programmers: feedback is critical otherwise you think you're perfect even if the code may not be.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

Well I got into development with only a matric 4yrs ago. Now studying through UNISA. So I see no real challenge for besides salary expectations.

 

[JStrike]

Without a degree you will not get a decent job. If the applicant doesn't have a proper degree (BCom, BBusSci, BSC) I don't even consider them. Not even these silly courses/diplomas such as MSXYZ++.
Just focus on getting to grips with Uni maths, and leave the job until you graduate

 

[Maddmatt]

Just focus on getting to grips with Uni maths

I don't think that's gonna happen. I could explain but I don't want to reveal too much about my self, let's just say my situation is complicated. I'd rather get the NZ degree, even if it means lower paying work until I can get it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in SA anyway.
The NZ university is miles ahead of the one I'm at in SA, in every aspect. I really liked it there and I hate it here.

That's for the advice everyone. I think I'll put more effort into Java. Still need a good book or something, I'm not sure what I should use to learn.

 

[Stephen]

Without a degree you will not get a decent job. If the applicant doesn't have a proper degree (BCom, BBusSci, BSC) I don't even consider them. Not even these silly courses/diplomas such as MSXYZ++.
Just focus on getting to grips with Uni maths, and leave the job until you graduate

Wow I suppose we should close down techs then, I must make sure I dont apply to your company.

We had this guy with his fancy degrees and he was lousy and couldnt get a simple thing done. Plus he was suppose to be a guru

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Wow I suppose we should close down techs then, I must make sure I dont apply to your company.

We had this guy with his fancy degrees and he was lousy and couldnt get a simple thing done. Plus he was suppose to be a guru

You get that with everyone - degreed or not. However, the chances of a degreed candidate not being able to cope is smaller than that of a non-degreed candidate. Likewise, you do get experienced individuals without a degree who are able to perform very well. In this instance, they're harder to find.

Ideally what companies seem to want is somebody with a degree and the relevant experience.

 

[bin3]

"Without a degree you will not get a decent job" ????

Uhuh -- My > 12 years in the industry begs to differ. As does my car, my house, ...

Either you are a good programmer -- Somewhere somebody will pick this up and you can get a great job, or you are not and no matter how many degrees you get it won't change.

Personally, I think learning to program you should be focussing more on finding an interesting project to do, and then finding a language / toolset that suits your needs. This should motivate you in trying different languages to see how you could solve your problem from different perspectives, etc, etc.

This will also be your entry point in most interviews ---

"What have you done recently?"

"Well, I wrote this system that ... "

Oh; For Java, I would recommend getting "Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software" by Erich Gamma et al.

This is not a book for beginners, but it should help a huge amount with developing your design techniques

On a side note, I personally would not mind having a degree for my own personal reasons - and once you start working it is extremely difficult to go back to study. So if you have the opportunity ... finish your degree. It is YOUR degree, and never mind what anybody else thinks about it -- it should be worth something to YOU.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

@OP: I've seen companies that are far more lenient on individuals in their final year of study, especially towards BCom or BSc qualifications. Second year, not so much. Not sure if that helps in any way.

 

[JStrike]

"Without a degree you will not get a decent job" ????

Uhuh -- My > 12 years in the industry begs to differ. As does my car, my house, ...

Either you are a good programmer -- Somewhere somebody will pick this up and you can get a great job, or you are not and no matter how many degrees you get it won't change.

Personally, I think learning to program you should be focussing more on finding an interesting project to do, and then finding a language / toolset that suits your needs. This should motivate you in trying different languages to see how you could solve your problem from different perspectives, etc, etc.

This will also be your entry point in most interviews ---

"What have you done recently?"

"Well, I wrote this system that ... "

Oh; For Java, I would recommend getting "Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software" by Erich Gamma et al.

This is not a book for beginners, but it should help a huge amount with developing your design techniques

On a side note, I personally would not mind having a degree for my own personal reasons - and once you start working it is extremely difficult to go back to study. So if you have the opportunity ... finish your degree. It is YOUR degree, and never mind what anybody else thinks about it -- it should be worth something to YOU.

There are always exceptions. However, trying to sift through the non-degreed pool of applicants is generally not worth it.
Also, most businesses prefer not to hire programmers and rather focus on developers. Programmers tend to be just another form of hacker. Enterprise/business and process focus is the differentiator.
There are certain industries where programmers are preferred, but they are the exception.
I couldn't agree more with your recommendation. The Gang of Four is an *essential* read, and I would say it should be read as early on as possible.
Another fantastic book is Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture by Martin Fowler

 

[sn3rd]

If you're doing Java, get started on Java EE. It'll make you easier to hire.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

"Without a degree you will not get a decent job" ????

Uhuh -- My > 12 years in the industry begs to differ. As does my car, my house, ...

I take it your currently employed with that statement. Easy to say when your not looking for work. You will be shocked to see what companies are paying non-graduates even with 2 decades experience right now.

If you don't have a degree, then do not look at earning a salary but rather be the one that pays them.

On a side note, I personally would not mind having a degree for my own personal reasons

I'm doing my BSc more for myself than income growth. If it where all about money I would never be a developer but go back into sales. But do it, its so rewarding passing exams even if it is C++ for dummies

(Have a look at UNISA and if your serious, then do their Certificate in Datametrics. Its 10 BSc modules and takes 2 yrs. After that you can use these 10 modules towards your BSc and only need to complete the other 20 which should take you 4yrs).

and once you start working it is extremely difficult to go back to study. So if you have the opportunity ... finish your degree.

Your giving advice in field you have no experience in. Its not hard at all to do this. The only difference is that it take a year or two longer to get your degree. My BSc is now half way and will be completed in 2012. I'm actually finding it very easy to study and work, especially that I'm in IT now.

It is YOUR degree, and never mind what anybody else thinks about it -- it should be worth something to YOU.

100% and one thing to remember for all those under-graduates, nobody gives a rats butt what your degree is, they only care that you got it. Half the graduates I've worked with do not have BScs with IT majors. I even worked under a senior developer who has a Phd in Physics - he is now a partner in a very successful IT firm.

But not finishing your degree is considered worse than never having tried. I've worked with two such guys and sadly they show zero discipline their work regardless of the circumstances surrounding the reasons for them dropping out.

Because all a degree shows your prospective employer is not that you can develop (as many will confirm most graduate cannot), but you had the discipline to get through it.

 

[Gnome]

The NZ university is miles ahead of the one I'm at in SA, in every aspect. I really liked it there and I hate it here.

Can you say which University you are currently studying from in SA?

Just my 2c:
The reason for the mathematics is because Computer Science (unlike BCom informatics or such degrees) is focused on algorithms and mathematics involved with algorithms (which coincidentally is used on computers). In the US, you'll notice that MIT are just as mathematics oriented as we are locally.

As a comparison you can look at the wikipedia definition of CS:

Computer science or computing science (sometimes abbreviated CS) is the study of the theoretical foundations of information and computation, and of practical techniques for their implementation and application in computer systems. It is frequently described as the systematic study of algorithmic processes that create, describe, and transform information

Furthermore the breakdown of what is usually included in a computer science degree, mathematically:

• Mathematical logic, Automata theory, Number theory, Graph theory, Type theory, Category theory, Computational geometry, Quantum computing theory

Of that the only thing that wasn't covered in our CS degree was Quantum computing theory.

In terms of computing theory:

• Computability theory, Computational complexity theory, Cryptography
• Analysis of algorithms, Data Structures and Algorithms
• Digital logic, Microarchitecture, Multiprocessing
• Numerical analysis, Computational physics, Computational chemistry, Bioinformatics
• Machine Learning, Computer vision, Image Processing, Pattern Recognition, Cognitive Science, Data Mining, Evolutionary Computation, Information Retrieval, Knowledge Representation, Natural Language Processing, Robotics, Human–computer interaction
• Operating systems, Computer networks, Databases, Computer security, Ubiquitous computing, Systems architecture, Compiler design, Programming languages

During my degree the only topics there I didn't cover were Computational physics, Computational chemistry, Bioinformatics, they were options however. I also didn't cover Computer vision or Robotics which weren't options. Some of them, like AI could be avoided if you didn't take those modules, but most of it was covered (especially as you say mathematics).

So personally I feel I got a fairly decent CS degree, however I'm fully open to hearing another persons opinion! (This is not an attack, I am truly interested)

I was already very strong in the programming field so I wasn't so bother if we covered lots of programming or languages, we did however do lots of C++, Java,.NET and touched on just about every mayor language.

The techniques above are naturally applicable to any language, hence the reason it's usually abstracted.

 

[dequadin]

If you never studied Math and Logic you get questions like this

 

[Raithlin]

If you never studied Math and Logic you get questions like this

BTW, UNISA no longer offers the Nat. Cert. in Datametrics. I'm on it, and I have next year to finish it.

 

[UnUnOctium]

Sharing some of my experience/knowledge:

In most degrees, yes, it doesn't matter specifically what it is as long as you got it from a recognised university. The only exception I've found is for engineering where there already is an established 'standard' due to the general shortage (yay ). Even if you are going into finance as an engineer (believe it or not, it's pretty big) you can still demand a proper engineering grad pay (16k+). For an extra boost in starting salary, try work towards a distinction, it makes a difference. But an important thing to remember is that if you want to do postgrad (even if just honours) no one will want to hire you until you're done. All it takes for me is to say I'm doing an MSc full time and companies just don't want to bother, even if you only need to go in to university 1 day a week for a few hours. So you should make sure you have some savings you can eat into if you wish to do postgraduate. The benefits of it, as far as I'm told, is (especially with a PhD) that your promotions will be speedy, and THAT makes a big difference. If you notice CEOs, CTOs etc of big companies, most of them are PhDs. So look for a good bursary

 

[Maddmatt]

Can you say which University you are currently studying from in SA?

Just my 2c:
The reason for the mathematics is because Computer Science (unlike BCom informatics or such degrees) is focused on algorithms and mathematics involved with algorithms (which coincidentally is used on computers). In the US, you'll notice that MIT are just as mathematics oriented as we are locally.

Well since I gave it away in another thread: UKZN, Westville.

I understand the need for some mathematics, but I think it's a bit ridiculous that first year has so little that's actually computer related here. At the end of first year, you will still be a useless programmer unless you've managed to do a lot of extra learning on your own (unlikely unless you're a natural at calculus).

If you never studied Math and Logic you get questions like this

That's easy stuff for me, I'm good at maths and logic related work. It's the university calculus that I hate and have no interest in. When am I going to use that stuff in programming? Unless maybe I'm making some advanced physics and 3D graphics engine I see no need for it in my life.


Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm glad I started this thread.

 

[TKD01]

Without a degree you will not get a decent job. If the applicant doesn't have a proper degree (BCom, BBusSci, BSC) I don't even consider them. Not even these silly courses/diplomas such as MSXYZ++.

Your personal opinion

I don't have a degree, got a fantastic job earning R750k+ bonus per annum including international travel... I've got collegues who's SAP and CISCO consultants (also no degrees) who earn even more... There is a BIG difference between the "fly by night" Intec / CTI certifications and proper certifications in SAP / CISCO etc...