Prove that Local bandwidth counts to your cap

[dominic]

Will they consider that as conclusive evidence though - we all know it - but will it hold up in court?

probably not but you would also probably not want to go anywhere near a court so that is fine - would suggest seeing if you can get a straightforward way to test (local only account as suggested by bwana + one or two other tests...what's that thread about using IPCop?) whether telkominternet or your_isp is including local usage. when you have a plan maybe badger uncle rpm to put up a sticky so that lots and lots of folks can feed in results

// from ICASA Council - all complaints made regarding telkom and the dsl regulations have been forwarded to telkom for formal comment...this will include individual complaints and ISP and ISPA complaints. i am following up with them to get info on the time-frames involved

 

[Jonny Two Shoes]

FYI -- I just contacted SAIX. They directed me to their Business solutions department. Phone number for them is 10219.

Annamarie (not sure of spelling) told me the broadband wholesale prices. Nothing has changed. As for local and international she cannot help but has given me another contact, will keep you posted. 0800 600 126 <----EDIT this is the bloody number for Telkom Customer Care Dammit!!

Anyway she did certainly say Telkom and SAIX are one entity as SAIX is owned by Telkom.

 

[WilD_CaT]

If local does not count towards your cap then when u get capped you should still have full local access.

No one does unless u have openbrowse...but thats not true local uncapped.

So just show that you are capped and you cannot access all local sites/gaming etc.

?

 

[eremos]

Again, and much like TI and Telkom, the beast claims SAIX is a separate entity.Buy a local only account - if it expires that would be proof enough right?

Good one. Trouble is Telkom doesn't have local-only accounts, and as soon as you use eg. WebAfrica to test, Telkom will again go "oh, it's the ISP capping you".

However, you'll be able to log in to userstats and show how local access is counting towards your usage and thus that ISPs are being charged for it.

And if Telkom refuses to provide proof that Telkom and SAIX and TI are all the same company ICASA should bloody well SUE them for it!

 

[bekdik]

It cant be turned against them because Telkom claims TelkomInternet is a separate company.

In fact they go so far as to say “ISPs, including TelkomInternet, obviously need to comply with the Regulation in this regard."

1. TelkomInternet, like SAIX is not a registered compaNY.
2.All billing for TelkomInternet is carried out under the registered company number and VAT number for Telkom SA Beperk, on a Telkom Tx Invoice. If TelkomInternet is a separate entity then this makes the Tax Invoice raised by Telkom illegal. If Telkom is trading as TelkomInternet then it is still the same entity ie Telkom.

 

[bwana]

1. TelkomInternet, like SAIX is not a registered compaNY.
2.All billing for TelkomInternet is carried out under the registered company number and VAT number for Telkom SA Beperk, on a Telkom Tx Invoice. If TelkomInternet is a separate entity then this makes the Tax Invoice raised by Telkom illegal. If Telkom is trading as TelkomInternet then it is still the same entity ie Telkom.

Cool - then it should be a breeze for you to prove it.

 

[bekdik]

Cool - then it should be a breeze for you to prove it.

I do not need to prove anything. If a complaint is laid with ICASA then they, ICASA, needs take it up with Telkom and Telkom has to prove that Telkom is not in breech of a regulation.

The problem is getting ICASA to act, as they appear singularly unwilling so to do.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Why is it so hard to prove.

Everyone knows local does indeed count towards caps.

I do have a couple of questions though, how does IS VS SAIX tie in. I mean IS resellers often sell local accounts. Whilst they do sometimes allow people to go over, its still not "uncapped". So they charge for it. Does this mean you have to go against IS as well, most people are LOVE IS's local accounts...

If Telkom say its the ISP's who must administer the capping, is the bandwidth(data) they sell to ISP's differentiated between local and Int? Ask the ISP's, if they say no "they sell us one price it doesn't matter between local and international" then clearly local does count. If Telskum still say local doesn't count, then ask the ISP's to differentiate local and international (If they can) and bill Telkom for a refund on the local bandwidth used.

If Telkom refuse, then they can go to ICASA. Look here, Telkom refuse to give us local and International seperate. We resell it and have monitored local vs int usage and seperate it ourselves as they said we should. So we will pay for Int usage but as local doesn't count we must be refunded for local bandwidth paid for. The ISP's can then get their money back from Telkom or go to ICASA and say lookie here, evidence that Telkom charges for local bandwidth....

My point is, we know local is supposed to be free or not count towards the cap. We know it isnt free and that it does in fact count. Telkom cannot show 1 single case that disproves this, whilst we have every single SAIX account - that is proof that local counts... how hard can it be to clearly show ICASA this?

although, seriously....its ICASA, they can't do anything anyways(Sorry for being pessimistac, just an opinion) ICASA are a joke.

 

[bwana]

I do not need to prove anything. If a complaint is laid with ICASA then they, ICASA, needs take it up with Telkom and Telkom has to prove that Telkom is not in breech of a regulation.

The problem is getting ICASA to act, as they appear singularly unwilling so to do.

Which was my earlier point - http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=945883&postcount=12

So why doesnt ICASA act? Rhetorical qn because we know - telkom's got deep pockets and a brigade of lawyers. Telco's the world around exist in a regulatory bubble. Without that bubble they couldn't exist - real competition would crush them - so they do whatever they have to do.

 

[Tommygun]

@ Dominic et al. I got sent the complaint that ICASA has forwarded to Telkom. Note how pathetic it really is in its scope. I am amazed that after all this time and wevb sites like this that this is the best ICASA can come up with...The instalation time is such a non issue in my eyes. Thats bad business on the part of Telkom and at least the consumer is not paying for what they are not getting.

The Chief Executive Officer
Telkom SA Limited
Private Bag X780
PRETORIA
0001

Dear Sir

CONCERNS ABOUT ALLEGATIONS OF NON-COMPLIANCE TO ADSL REGULATIONS BY TELKOM:

The above matter refers.

1. The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa wishes to notify you that it is being inundated with numerous complaints from members of the public, alleging that Telkom is not acting in compliance with the ADSL Regulations that were approved on the 7th of August 2006.

2. Since the beginning of December 2006, the Authority has been receiving and continues to receive consumer complaints making allegations of Telkom’s non-compliance to aspects of ADSL Regulations, more specifically:
delays in ADSL Service Installation and Fault Clearance and
delays in the implementation of Service Level Agreements.

3. It is important to note further that consumers who have lodged complaints with the Authority inform us that they are receiving unsatisfactory service levels from Telkom’s Customer Service department, with regard to mean time for operator response to calls as well as compliance to Procedures for Complaints Handling, Escalation and Resolution Mechanisms.

More specifically, consumers complain that they are made to hold on for unacceptably long duration before they can get Telkom’s Customer Care centre personnel to pick up the phone and if they do, they invariably refuse to provide them with the contact details of their superiors, as it should be in terms of the procedures referred to above.

The Authority brings these concerns to your office for your attention and resolution. The Authority would want that Telkom respond specifically to the following questions:

Why does it appear that Telkom does not comply to the installation timeframes as set out in the ADSL regulations (according to the complaints received by the Authority)?

How does Telkom intend to fix this problem?

What timelines does Telkom set for itself to address all the backlogs regarding Installation and Fault Clearance complaints?

Has Telkom entered into Service Level Agreements with its subscribers and if not so, when does Telkom intend to do so?

The Authority would like to have a response to these concerns and consumer complaints within ten days from receipt hereof, failing which the Authority shall be left with no alternative but to pursue the matter according to formal complaints resolution and arbitration mechanisms.

Attached herewith please find copies of consumer complaints in relation hereto, for your note and action. The majority of these complaints have since been forwarded to Telkom for resolution, but have not been responded to - see Annexure “A” for case reference numbers.

Yours faithfully


_____________________
Paris Mashile
The Chairperson: ICASA

Date:_________________



ANNEXURE “A”

REFERENCE NUMBERS OF CASES FORWARDED TO TELKOM:


No. Ref No. Name of Complainant
<SNIP>
64 case numbers and names of complainants...removed for privacy
</SNIP>

 

[eremos]

Well, it's a start. I think we should now "inundate" CASA with complaints about the 24 hour reset and see if they send Telkom another scary letter.

CASA appear to be completely out of touch with reality - as you say, how can they focus just on that issue when there are so many others, some more serious.

 

[ldmelsa]

Give Tommygun evidence!

A strange request but I want to give some unofficial help to ICASA in their fight against Telkom and their upcomming meeting.
What I want is PROOF that local bandwidth is going towards your cap...
The most obvious is gamers playing on local only servers getting capped once they hit their cap allocation.
Please if you can provide proof (or ways of getting it) rather than annecdotal evidence. It needs to be sharp enough to bloody the Telkom noses well and truely and give them no room to wriggle out of their need to adhere to Government Gazette No 29141 and article 3.4
We can takle the other issues later.

Give Tommygun evidence!

 

[WilD_CaT]

I just want lots of free local bandwidth....

 

[Tommygun]

@ Legal People....Is it possible to prove that Telkom Internet/SAIX are the same entity as Telkom business or Telkom POTs.
I think an approach would be to claim they are the same and therefore they (Telkom Internet) Should be leading the way with implimenting free local bandwidth. If they are the same entity there should be no reason why Telkom Internet cannot comply with the regulations.
Is this a valid approach to skinning the beast?

 

[Jonny Two Shoes]

^^Like I said, even an employee at SAIX told me they are one and the same. The problem is on Telkom to disprove this and I don't think they can. I think we should be asking how can Telkom possibly prove that SAIX is a seperate entity concerning all the information on this thread alone.

However the biggest problem is with ICASA. Maybe its time we as consumers stop focussing on Telkom and start giving it to ICASA. As far as I'm concerned it is them with which the problem lies. Without ICASA's incompetence it appears we would have had free telecoms liberalization long ago.

Telkom have no reason to change. Therefor every attack on them from us will fail as it has over the past x amount of years.


Edit -- In light of what i said here ^^ does anybody know how ICASA can be handled for their incompetence. ?? Probably only through government with which lies another problem anyway. A petition in America counts for a lot as far as I know, anything like this in SA??

 

[ldmelsa]

@ Legal People....Is it possible to prove that Telkom Internet/SAIX are the same entity as Telkom business or Telkom POTs.
I think an approach would be to claim they are the same and therefore they (Telkom Internet) Should be leading the way with implimenting free local bandwidth. If they are the same entity there should be no reason why Telkom Internet cannot comply with the regulations.
Is this a valid approach to skinning the beast?

If Telkom charges the ISPs for local bandwidth, then it is Telkom's fault.

I'm not a legal person.

 

[ldmelsa]

If Telkom charges the ISPs for local bandwidth, then it is Telkom's fault.

I'm not a legal person.

Is there anyone, from an ISP, on this forum that can answer this question?

 

[bekdik]

Your proof that SAIX = Telkom :

From http://www.saix.net/terms.html

C. PAYMENT
1. The customer shall pay to Telkom SA Limited all applicable charges, tariffs, fees and other amounts ("charges") as may be set out in this agreement, in respect of the provision of the services to the customer.

2. The charges may be varied by Telkom SA Limited from time to time in the following circumstances:
2.1. In the event of any increase by South African Internet Exchange "SAIX" in its tariffs relating to any service provided to the customer by Telkom SA, in which case the actual increase will be passed on to the customer.
2.2. On or after 1 January of every year (with effect from that date) after the commencement date.

Your proof that TelkomInternet = Telkom :

From http://www.telkomsa.net/support/termsconditions.html

C. Payment
1. The customer shall pay to Telkom SA all applicable charges, tariffs, fees and other amounts ("charges") as may be set out in this agreement, in respect of the provision of the services to the customer.

2. The charges may be varied by Telkom SA from time to time in the following circumstances:
2.1. In the event of any increase by South African Internet Exchange "SAIX" in its tariffs relating to any service provided to the customer by Telkom SA, in which case the actual increase will be passed on to the customer.
2.2. On or after 1 April of every year (with effect from that date) after the commencement date.

 

[Jongi]

Ask TelkomInternet and SAIX for their compny registration numbers. You could probably request the information from the Registrar of Companies for a nominal fee as well.

 

[bekdik]

Ask TelkomInternet and SAIX for their compny registration numbers. You could probably request the information from the Registrar of Companies for a nominal fee as well.

A search on http://www.cipro.gov.za does not produce any results for SAIX or South African Internet Exchange or Telkom Internet

You'll notice that in both the quotes i placed earlier all money goes to Telkom SA.

Telkom SA is shown on cipro and also as a VAT vendor on SARSefiling.

Further you will notice that TelkomInternet charges appear on and are paid into your Telkom SA account.

Interestingly neither http://saix.net or http://telkomsa.net have a paia (Promotion of Access to Information Act) reference. If these are not Telkom then they are in contravention of the Act.