R861m Gautrain bill

Pitbull said:
By all means. I'm sure a couple are getting very rich from this scheme. My point though is that it's a massive success. Imagine 60 - 70 thousand people having to also use the highway to get to work and back daily on top of the traffic we have already. :eek:

It's working and people are using it. It's suppose to be public transport and Government is footing the bill. I don't see the issue.
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In have no problems with government funded public transport. Now that's the crux. Funded out of my tax money I already pay. It's like that the world over. Unfortunately the Gautrain only provides for a small group of of our society. The infrastructure will never reach the same level of benefit to the society in south Africa as in properly developed countries. It's a farce and a stinking one for that.
 
Pitbull said:
I whole heartedly disagree with you.

If you think about it rationally and not emotionally you will come to the same conclusion.
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I have come to the same conclusion as I did 5 years ago, and two years ago...
This system was unnecessary, expensive, and will never be fully utilised.
5 years of evidence have proven that I was correct.
 
Seriously said:
In have no problems with government funded public transport. Now that's the crux. Funded out of my tax money I already pay. It's like that the world over. Unfortunately the Gautrain only provides for a small group of of our society. The infrastructure will never reach the same level of benefit to the society in south Africa as in properly developed countries. It's a farce and a stinking one for that.
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I agree with you on this. But again, that's a separate issue. Extend the Gautrain to more cities and the likes. But this takes nothing away from the Gautrain providing a very necessary service and it's doing it exceptionally well.
 
Garyvdh said:
I have come to the same conclusion as I did 5 years ago, and two years ago...
This system was unnecessary, expensive, and will never be fully utilised.
5 years of evidence have proven that I was correct.
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Nope, still don't agree.

The way you're arguing this should mean you support e-tolling too? Why should our tax money pay for the upgrade of the roads... Let the people who use them pay and pay more than is owned...

It doesn't make sense.
 
Pitbull said:
... it's doing it exceptionally well.
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What are you basing this on? By what measures.

The only measures we can see, is that it is under-utilised and under funded.
Are there some other magical stats or measures that you can find?
 
Pitbull said:
Nope, still don't agree.
The way you're arguing this should mean you support e-tolling too? Why should our tax money pay for the upgrade of the roads... Let the people who use them pay and pay more than is owned...
It doesn't make sense.
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Rubbish, the structure of the etolls and the Gautrain is exactly the same and I oppose both systems as being ludicrously over-expensive.
They were both unnecessary. There were already existing systems and funding mechanisms in place for both.
Both are based on the user pays principle, but yet they both have to bailed out by the government because of massive cost over runs.
It is consistent to oppose both systems.
 
Garyvdh said:
What are you basing this on? By what measures.

The only measures we can see, is that it is under-utilised and under funded.
Are there some other magical stats or measures that you can find?
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Simple. My family use the gautrain as cheap transport to varsity and sandton for work. They benefit, no one else! Eventually they will let it drop of the agenda!
 
Garyvdh said:
Rubbish, the structure of the etolls and the Gautrain is exactly the same and I oppose both systems as being ludicrously over-expensive.
They were both unnecessary. There were already existing systems and funding mechanisms in place for both.
Both are based on the user pays principle, but yet they both have to bailed out by the government because of massive cost over runs.
It is consistent to oppose both systems.
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So you where ok with 2/3 lanes on the N1/R21 Highway? Did you drive those roads before the upgrade?

The upgrade was needed. Government should foot the bills for both from our taxes instead of squandering it all over the place on crap. I support both upgrades and I have no issue paying for the use of the Gautrain as it's convenient and quick. E-tolls I refuse to pay as these upgrades where done to improve existing roads which were free to use. You can't take an existing road, paint lines on it and now start charging for the usage...

Gautrain was built from scratch...
 
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Garyvdh said:
That's about half what it should be.
Half of what was projected when it was first proposed.
That looks like failure to me.
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No wait, you asked me how I can say it's a success?

60 - 70k people using it daily is a success. Sure it could do better, but that doesn't mean it's not successful :confused:
 
Pitbull said:
So you where ok with 2/3 lanes on the N1/R21 Highway? Did you drive those roads before the upgrade?

The upgrade was needed. Government should foot the bills for both from our taxes instead of squandering it all over the place on crap. I support both upgrades and I have no issue paying for the use of the Gautrain as it's convenient and quick. E-tolls I refuse to pay as these upgrades where done to improve existing roads which were free to use. You can't take an existing road, paint lines on it and now start charging for the usage...
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I never said I was against the upgrades... I was against the methods they proposed to fund those upgrades.
The fuel levy and other existing methods were more than sufficient systems to fund the upgrades.
Come on now, you are just derailing.
 
Garyvdh said:
I never said I was against the upgrades... I was against the methods they proposed to fund those upgrades.
The fuel levy and other existing methods were more than sufficient systems to fund the upgrades.
Come on now, you are just derailing.
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How am I derailing?

You have an issue with the Gautrain which is currently providing a much needed service to 60 odd thousand people a day. I don't get it.

I hardly ever use the Gautrain, but when I need to go to our offices in Sandton I use it. It's amazing and I have no issues with my tax paying for it. I suppose you can't use it?
 
Pitbull said:
No wait, you asked me how I can say it's a success?

60 - 70k people using it daily is a success. Sure it could do better, but that doesn't mean it's not successful :confused:
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It is only achieving 60% of what it was proposed for. The numbers were supposed to be over 100,000 per day.
60% is nowhere near success... that's barely above a failing grade.
And R1 Billion a year patronage fee is not at all successful.
I think you are buying into the ANC's attitude that tax payers are just cash cows and that throwing massive amounts of cash at the problem will fix it.
By your logic, the R23 Billion cash bail out for Eskom is a massive sign of success.
 
Pitbull said:
How am I derailing?
You have an issue with the Gautrain which is currently providing a much needed service to 60 odd thousand people a day. I don't get it.
I hardly ever use the Gautrain, but when I need to go to our offices in Sandton I use it. It's amazing and I have no issues with my tax paying for it. I suppose you can't use it?
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It goes nowhere near my home or business.... me and 11,940,000 other Gauteng citizens.
 
Garyvdh said:
It is only achieving 60% of what it was proposed for. The numbers were supposed to be over 100,000 per day.
60% is nowhere near success... that's barely above a failing grade.
And R1 Billion a year patronage fee is not at all successful.
I think you are buying into the ANC's attitude that tax payers are just cash cows and that throwing massive amounts of cash at the problem will fix it.
By your logic, the R23 Billion cash bail out for Eskom is a massive sign of success.
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Ok so they projected 100k per day. The take up on this is not there yet but it's sitting at 60% - 70% daily. If they ran daily with no passengers or maybe 100 passengers then yes I would agree with you. But you're wrong. That is a 60 - 70% target reached in just 5 years. It's amazing. And again, it's a public service, it's not suppose to be profitable. It's suppose to provide a service.
 
Garyvdh said:
It goes nowhere near my home or business.... me and 11,940,000 other Gauteng citizens.
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So then say that is your issue.

Don't shoot the project down because you can't use it. I can't use public busses as it doesn't service my area. Does that means the Tshwane bus service is now a money sink or a huge failure?
 
Pitbull said:
Ok so they projected 100k per day. The take up on this is not there yet but it's sitting at 60% - 70% daily. If they ran daily with no passengers or maybe 100 passengers then yes I would agree with you. But you're wrong. That is a 60 - 70% target reached in just 5 years. It's amazing. And again, it's a public service, it's not suppose to be profitable. It's suppose to provide a service.
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OK, we shall see if the figures have moved at all in another two years (and another R2 Billion).
 
I would love to use the Gautrain, but it doesn't get to the areas where I need to be.

Pretoria East is cut off from it and the closest bus stop at work in way too far to walk.
 
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