Shayd
Expert Member
Honestly it needs to be expanded to cover all the high density areas of Gauteng. I have a feeling that the bigger they build it the more successful it would be.
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R861m Gautrain bill
Pitbull
Verboten
Agreed, but with people whining as it is now. Do you think it will even happen? They will extend it and then people will whine again and so it goes. I would love to get on a speed train in PTA and be able to go to Durban and even CPT. Damn even Boksburg will do. I can't see that happening though due to all the complaining.
Albereth
Honorary Master
If you look at the context of the discussion where the money could have been spent upgrading and extending the Metrorail service we would still have the 'needed' service.
However, and this is what currently refutes the argument about 'needed', it has missed the projected usage figures.
The feasability studies for expanding Gautrain are due to start next year January I think.
The Areyeng BRT project is operating now in parts of Pretoria and as that expands it could boost Gautrain ridership as the two are integrated...
The population of Gauteng is going to be around 18mil people by 2037 and I bet you by then, we will be happy to have the Gautrain and similar transportation projects.
http://www.itmp25.gpg.gov.za/documents/ITMP25-Main-Report-Final-Draft-1-13-Nov13.pdf -> quite interesting to read if you're interested in what Governemnt is looking at trying to do.
The Areyeng BRT project is operating now in parts of Pretoria and as that expands it could boost Gautrain ridership as the two are integrated...
The population of Gauteng is going to be around 18mil people by 2037 and I bet you by then, we will be happy to have the Gautrain and similar transportation projects.
http://www.itmp25.gpg.gov.za/documents/ITMP25-Main-Report-Final-Draft-1-13-Nov13.pdf -> quite interesting to read if you're interested in what Governemnt is looking at trying to do.
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Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Thank you a very useful reminder. That is quite a report to digest. I am particularly interested (from a completely different angle), in the comparison between Gauteng and cities like London and Paris.
The table on page 14 of the report (page 45 of the pdf file), shows the population densities for Gauteng, in the base year and projected to 2037. It shows clearly why comparisons between cities in the rest of the World and SA have to be done very carefully.
Population Density (persons/ha)
City 2010 2037
Gauteng M 9.6 16.7
London 49.4
Paris 85.3
Makes you think what "urban" means hey!
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TofuMofu
Honorary Master
Would you use the Metrorail? I wouldn't...they freakin burn the trains when they are late or even the whole station.
No, we middle class need a decent system and the Gautrain is just that.
As Shayd said, it needs to be expanded. Especially in Pretoria as there are thousands of people who commute daily to Johannesburg from Pretoria (like myself).
Expans and I will gladly use it.
Pitbull
Verboten
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Gautrain subsidy could fund entire freeway project - AA
Cape Town - The Automobile Association expressed concern on Friday that the Gautrain subsidy has reached R1.5bn, saying it could fund the entire Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP).
Reacting to the announcement made by Gauteng Transport MEC Ismail Vadi at a business breakfast on Wednesday, the AA said R1.5bn a year would be enough to fund the entire annual payback costs for the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP) "if one excluded the cost of the tolling infrastructure and the inflated costs arising from tender collusion on the project".
"The Gautrain subsidy is now consuming almost a quarter of the Gauteng Department of Transport's budget."
About 60 000 people a day use the Gautrain, which connects Pretoria with Johannesburg and provides a rail service to OR Tambo airport.
"The Gautrain’s fares make it clear that it is a transport mode for higher earners. It is unjust for taxpayers' money to be diverted from the transport budget to subsidise these commuters," the AA said.
The AA said millions of commuter trips are made on Gauteng's freeways every day, and that those roads remain the arteries of the province for commerce.
According to the AA the cost of installing and managing the tolling infrastructure substantially increased the cost of the GFIP, with the government claiming that tolling was chosen as a funding model because there was no money available elsewhere.
"The scale of the Gautrain subsidy demonstrates that this is not true. The R1.5bn which is being used to subsidise a minority of Gautrain commuters would have been better used to fund the roads which benefit all citizens in Gauteng Province and the country."
The AA argued that the government's selective reliance on the so-called user-pay argument for roads is not sustainable.
"The government's own review of State-Owned Entities, published in October 2013, found that there should be less reliance on user-pay funding for social infrastructure like roads," the association said.
"And if the user-pay principle is to be applied, it should be applied equally; we see no reason for the Gautrain to be exempt. We remain of the opinion that taxation is the most cost-effective way to fund transport infrastructure," the AA said.
Vadi told News24 in a June 18 interview that Gauteng residents need to change their mindsets on e-tolling, as new highways have to be built. The question is how this would be done.
His department's R6.6bn was not only for roads and was "nearly not enough to maintain the current road network".
Over R1bn was allocated to the Gautrain, and other portions were allocated to public transport, building taxi ranks, inter-modal facilities, and learner and driver testing centres, among other budgetary needs.
"So roads itself (sic) gets about R1.5bn, R2bn at most. I can't then proceed with a R2bn budget to build a new highway. So either we just defer it, we leave it, and say: 'well, another generation or another administration can deal with it' or you look for private sector participation," Vadi said.
Fin24
Source: http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Gautrain-subsidy-could-fund-entire-freeway-project-AA-20150626
Cape Town - The Automobile Association expressed concern on Friday that the Gautrain subsidy has reached R1.5bn, saying it could fund the entire Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP).
Reacting to the announcement made by Gauteng Transport MEC Ismail Vadi at a business breakfast on Wednesday, the AA said R1.5bn a year would be enough to fund the entire annual payback costs for the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP) "if one excluded the cost of the tolling infrastructure and the inflated costs arising from tender collusion on the project".
"The Gautrain subsidy is now consuming almost a quarter of the Gauteng Department of Transport's budget."
About 60 000 people a day use the Gautrain, which connects Pretoria with Johannesburg and provides a rail service to OR Tambo airport.
"The Gautrain’s fares make it clear that it is a transport mode for higher earners. It is unjust for taxpayers' money to be diverted from the transport budget to subsidise these commuters," the AA said.
The AA said millions of commuter trips are made on Gauteng's freeways every day, and that those roads remain the arteries of the province for commerce.
According to the AA the cost of installing and managing the tolling infrastructure substantially increased the cost of the GFIP, with the government claiming that tolling was chosen as a funding model because there was no money available elsewhere.
"The scale of the Gautrain subsidy demonstrates that this is not true. The R1.5bn which is being used to subsidise a minority of Gautrain commuters would have been better used to fund the roads which benefit all citizens in Gauteng Province and the country."
The AA argued that the government's selective reliance on the so-called user-pay argument for roads is not sustainable.
"The government's own review of State-Owned Entities, published in October 2013, found that there should be less reliance on user-pay funding for social infrastructure like roads," the association said.
"And if the user-pay principle is to be applied, it should be applied equally; we see no reason for the Gautrain to be exempt. We remain of the opinion that taxation is the most cost-effective way to fund transport infrastructure," the AA said.
Vadi told News24 in a June 18 interview that Gauteng residents need to change their mindsets on e-tolling, as new highways have to be built. The question is how this would be done.
His department's R6.6bn was not only for roads and was "nearly not enough to maintain the current road network".
Over R1bn was allocated to the Gautrain, and other portions were allocated to public transport, building taxi ranks, inter-modal facilities, and learner and driver testing centres, among other budgetary needs.
"So roads itself (sic) gets about R1.5bn, R2bn at most. I can't then proceed with a R2bn budget to build a new highway. So either we just defer it, we leave it, and say: 'well, another generation or another administration can deal with it' or you look for private sector participation," Vadi said.
Fin24
Source: http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Gautrain-subsidy-could-fund-entire-freeway-project-AA-20150626
TofuMofu
Honorary Master
If Google was running the gautrain... they would
1. Charge a fixed price per day.... you can get on/off as much as you like. Take any line, even the airport line. The trains will be running on a fixed cost whether they are full or empty. No need to charge per distance. You want people using it every day. Cars cost a certain price per km and will not be able to compete with the gautrain.
2. The cost they charge will be cheaper than a car, and will be fixed for the next 3 months. People that opt to pre-pay for the next 3 months will get a discount on this price. The people that pay in advance would help to settle the outstanding debt and avoid interest payments, so they will get the benifit passed back to them. People would pay pro-rate till the next review. Everyhting will be priced on a mathematical model that ensures market share.
3. Every 3 months they will check the volumes and announce reduced pricing. They will announce expanded bus routes to cope with the volumes. They will add more trains every month. Busses will have a fixed cost, and 0 cost if you use the train, so they can be used by any commuter.
4. Google will partner with Uber to provide taxi services.
5. Google will have online payment services.
6. The service will initially run at a loss, but soon they break even they will use the money to expand all over gauteng. People will complain about how expensive their cars are compared to the trains. There will be park-and ride services all over gauteng.
7. Their execs will be using the service every day to see what the experience is like, they will be implementing improvements daily.
8. They will have a brilliant app that integrates everything.
9. The only bad thing! There will be advertising everywhere on big screens.
1. Charge a fixed price per day.... you can get on/off as much as you like. Take any line, even the airport line. The trains will be running on a fixed cost whether they are full or empty. No need to charge per distance. You want people using it every day. Cars cost a certain price per km and will not be able to compete with the gautrain.
2. The cost they charge will be cheaper than a car, and will be fixed for the next 3 months. People that opt to pre-pay for the next 3 months will get a discount on this price. The people that pay in advance would help to settle the outstanding debt and avoid interest payments, so they will get the benifit passed back to them. People would pay pro-rate till the next review. Everyhting will be priced on a mathematical model that ensures market share.
3. Every 3 months they will check the volumes and announce reduced pricing. They will announce expanded bus routes to cope with the volumes. They will add more trains every month. Busses will have a fixed cost, and 0 cost if you use the train, so they can be used by any commuter.
4. Google will partner with Uber to provide taxi services.
5. Google will have online payment services.
6. The service will initially run at a loss, but soon they break even they will use the money to expand all over gauteng. People will complain about how expensive their cars are compared to the trains. There will be park-and ride services all over gauteng.
7. Their execs will be using the service every day to see what the experience is like, they will be implementing improvements daily.
8. They will have a brilliant app that integrates everything.
9. The only bad thing! There will be advertising everywhere on big screens.
Wasabee!
Executive Member
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Hamish McPanji
Honorary Master
Training people how to do a simple calculation is where our money needs to be spent
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
@ Hawker, A very good Infographic!
That is why an integrated transport plan is required, where ALL forms of transport are catered for. It is NOT a winner takes all matter.
And that is why that article by the AA is not helpful at all.
That is why an integrated transport plan is required, where ALL forms of transport are catered for. It is NOT a winner takes all matter.
And that is why that article by the AA is not helpful at all.
Problem with Gautrain in SA is that it's sold as a premium service.. Which was a FAIL.
In Istanbul, albeit the prime minister has a palace which makes Zumas one look like an out house, they have a metro/Gautrain network which costs R10.50 (with a card) or R20 (cash) for transit to the end of a rail line.. So going to the airport cost me R20 vs R380+ taxi's charge (two transit lanes..).
I suspect the difference being that they made it dirt cheap, keep service running at a high frequency and lastly removed the chairs.. Only seats on the side so they can accommodate a lot of people. Also they rapidly expanded and still expanding their network.. Granted they do have the 2nd oldest network behind UK/London but still interesting that their costing is way cheaper than London too.
I think Gautrain, like most SA businesses in public domain/long term projects are just modeled wrong and as per usual went for the wrong target audience.
They can expand it all over Gauteng but ridership will be limited by ride cost & stupidity of seats in peak (which is why I refuse to use Gautrain in peak.. I pay premium, I deserve a seat)
In Istanbul, albeit the prime minister has a palace which makes Zumas one look like an out house, they have a metro/Gautrain network which costs R10.50 (with a card) or R20 (cash) for transit to the end of a rail line.. So going to the airport cost me R20 vs R380+ taxi's charge (two transit lanes..).
I suspect the difference being that they made it dirt cheap, keep service running at a high frequency and lastly removed the chairs.. Only seats on the side so they can accommodate a lot of people. Also they rapidly expanded and still expanding their network.. Granted they do have the 2nd oldest network behind UK/London but still interesting that their costing is way cheaper than London too.
I think Gautrain, like most SA businesses in public domain/long term projects are just modeled wrong and as per usual went for the wrong target audience.
They can expand it all over Gauteng but ridership will be limited by ride cost & stupidity of seats in peak (which is why I refuse to use Gautrain in peak.. I pay premium, I deserve a seat)
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Intergrated transport is the way it should be, and to be fair government is slowly getting it right -> Areyeng just started operating in small areas of Tshwane with other phases due to begin construction/implementation soon. It's going to take time, but this sort of stuff is slowly starting to happen.
TofuMofu
Honorary Master
To be fair...can you imagine what the Gautrain would look like if everyone could afford it? People in this country don't value the systems we have...they'll burn the train down at the first glimps of an issue.
The premium cost ensures educated people use it...
phoneJunky
Executive Member
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Whenever I use the trains it is so full that I have to stand. But that is always peak hours or close to it. Just took 1 airport train off peak and it was also fairly full. So I don't think they have a problem there.
I think there bus services are modelled all wrong. They should use it to to get the people from the suburbs to the station. In Centurion the parking is so full that most people I know that would use it don't. If there was a bus that came every 30 mins or so just during 05:00-08:00 or so and an opportune time in the afternoon they would need 16 cart trains to meet demand.
cr@zydude
Honorary Master
Rich=Educated? I learn such interesting things on MyBB.