Rick Perry

[copacetic]

Convenient for you, but not fine for those who have these beliefs. A few minutes a couple times a week will hurt no one. Its called tolerance.

Nope.

People go to school to get an education. There are all types there, some religious, some not. They do not go to public schools, with the intention of it being a religious occasion, and if that is the intention, then they are being intolerant.

Kids can pray to themselves, they can pray at lunch, or wherever they have a moment, no one will stop them from doing this, but to call for a recognized prayer time for the children, which will impinge on the time that should be spent learning is absolutely ludicrous.

Tolerance, that word makes my teeth itch sometimes, it's an excuse for people who actually want to impose their beliefs on the people around them, and they cry foul when they are politely told 'no, this is not the place'.

There are obvious practical issues as well, as already pointed out, and this should be enough reason, outside of anything else, to realize why it's a bad idea. Muslims pray several times a day, this will be highly disruptive. Now if there's a time for prayer for other students, the Muslims can quite rightly make a case that they are being discriminated against.

No prayer in schools, period. It's not intolerance, it's common bloody sense.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Who are you to say these scenarios don't exist in reality?

Have you seen the religious makeup of the US? All those religions are present.

The scenario that allowing the majority some time to pray once a week during assembly creates an untenable situation where everyone demands their own time causing the school problems. It just doesn't happen, and if it does, practically never.

All this was never a problem when i was in school.

 

[daveza]

Religion is divisive.

Perhaps more divisive than politics, neither of which school age kids should get involved in.

 

[porchrat]

The scenario that allowing the majority some time to pray once a week during assembly creates an untenable situation where everyone demands their own time causing the school problems. It just doesn't happen, and if it does, practically never.

All this was never a problem when i was in school.

Oh so now it is only the majority that get officially recognised prayer.

So you're proposing a system of inequality then based on majority rule.

Are those in the majority worth more as individuals than those in the minority? Is there religion now more important? I mean... it must be because their's are being officially recognised and nobody else's is.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Nope.

People go to school to get an education. There are all types there, some religious, some not. They do not go to public schools, with the intention of it being a religious occasion, and if that is the intention, then they are being intolerant.

Kids can pray to themselves, they can pray at lunch, or wherever they have a moment, no one will stop them from doing this, but to call for a recognized prayer time for the children, which will impinge on the time that should be spent learning is absolutely ludicrous.

Tolerance, that word makes my teeth itch sometimes, it's an excuse for people who actually want to impose their beliefs on the people around them, and they cry foul when they are politely told 'no, this is not the place'.

There are obvious practical issues as well, as already pointed out, and this should be enough reason, outside of anything else, to realize why it's a bad idea. Muslims pray several times a day, this will be highly disruptive. Now if there's a time for prayer for other students, the Muslims can quite rightly make a case that they are being discriminated against.

No prayer in schools, period. It's not intolerance, it's common bloody sense.

No one is calling for hourly prays, that would be unreasonable, we are talking about the very old, done for hundreds of years, practice of singing or praying during assembly or the like.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Oh so now it is only the majority that get officially recognised prayer.

So you're proposing a system of inequality then based on majority rule.

Are those in the majority worth more as individuals than those in the minority? Is there religion now more important? I mean... it must be because their's are being officially recognised and nobody else's is.

This country has been doing the praying during assembly thing for years and its worked fine. Let each school decide for themselves what will work and be fair to the students.

 

[daveza]

So you don't get your way, so no one must have theirs?

The correct answer is either allow everyone to practice their own religion or nobody.

... in the school - what they do outside the school is their own business.



Besides - there is no requirement for christians to pray before class.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Religion is divisive.

Perhaps more divisive than politics, neither of which school age kids should get involved in.

Once again you lot are making up wonderful scenarios to justify your views. A prayer during assembly is not the same as religious debates, obviously that would not be done because the children are too young.

 

[daveza]

Once again you lot are making up wonderful scenarios to justify your views. A prayer during assemblies is not the same as religious debates, obviously that would not be done because the children are too young.

Having only christian hymns and christian prayers makes the school a christian school, not a public school.

There is always the alternative of a private christian school - or any other religion for that matter.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Having only christian hymns and christian prayers makes the school a christian school, not a public school.

There is always the alternative of a private christian school - or any other religion for that matter.

The on the ground situation is that many US communities are extremely christian. I see nothing wrong with those communities praying occasionally within school grounds in a formal way even if the school is a public school. The same should be true for muslim communities. But of course there should be a line, but a few minutes once or twice a week is well within that limit.

 

[porchrat]

The on the ground situation is that many US communities are extremely christian. I see nothing wrong with those communities praying occasionally within school grounds in a formal way even if the school is a public school. The same should be true for muslim communities. But of course there should be a line, but a few minutes once or twice a week is well within that limit.

There should be a line? How the fsck do you draw an objective line that makes it fair for everyone using your proposed system of "minority religions don't matter and so don't get officially recognised"? :wtf:

 

[Rkootknir]

Once again you are making up extreme scenarios which don't exist in reality.

The on the ground situation is that many US communities are extremely christian. I see nothing wrong with those communities praying occasionally within school grounds in a formal way even if the school is a public school. The same should be true for muslim communities. But of course there should be a line, but a few minutes once or twice a week is well within that limit.

You seem to be missing the biggest point here. We're talking about public schools in the USA. Public schools in the USA receive federal funding. The first amendment to the US Constitution says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This effectively means that the US government is prohibited from establishing an official religion, or from favouring or disfavouring one religious view over another.

Allowing prayer in a US public school (which are effectively part of the US government as they receive state or federal funding) is a form of favouring a religion and is prohibited according to the above interpretation.

 

[Zyzzyva]

There should be a line? How the fsck do you draw an objective line that makes it fair for everyone using your proposed system of "minority religions don't matter and so don't get officially recognised"? :wtf:

It doesn't need to be fair, we are talking a few minutes here, people will survive, nobody will get flogged.

Your view is painfully PC, yes, that same PC attitude i suspect you don't like when you see it.

 

[noxibox]

You see, that is why I'm with Ron Paul on deciding to abolish the Federal board of education. If you have a law passed like that then you're bound to offend someone. Let the states decides on what the law should be and if you don't like it (I probably won't like praying in schools) then go somewhere else.

The religious should have the option to do things like pray, but keep it out of morning assemblies and official events.

8 out of 10 people in the US are christian

Are they?

Are there not any Republican candidates who are not completely bonkers ?

The Republican party has unfortunately degenerated into a home for fundamentalist Christians and other whackos.

erm, why can't American kids openly announce their Christianity or pray in schools?

I don't know if they really aren't allowed to, but you can be sure Perry's playing the "it's so unfair, we're always being persecuted" game that's very popular with the religious. However as much as people like Perry whine about being denied religious freedom what they really seek is an authoritarian religious state. His sort are not interested in the religious having the option to organise prayer, but making prayer required.

Surprisingly no one would probably live there.

Maybe in some utopia. In the real world people often have to live where they can get work or where they can afford to live.

 

[Zyzzyva]

You seem to be missing the biggest point here. We're talking about public schools in the USA. Public schools in the USA receive federal funding. The first amendment to the US Constitution says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This effectively means that the US government is prohibited from establishing an official religion, or from favouring or disfavouring one religious view over another.

Allowing prayer in a US public school (which are effectively part of the US government as they receive state or federal funding) is a form of favouring a religion and is prohibited according to the above interpretation.

Where did i say they need to allow only one religion. The whole point is the government shouldn't favor any religion, or no region, they should just let communities freely decide for themselves. Its simply not their place to enforce any rule around this subject. Their only role should be in making sure the level of education the kids receive is sufficient. A few minutes praying or singing(any religion)will not hurt that goal.

If a community decides they want to give the muslim kids 15 minutes and the christian kids 15 minutes once a week let them do that. If there is only one scientology's kid, well he needs to realize the numbers are not in his favor. He and the other 5(whatever) kids can go play with their phones outside - they will appreciate the free time.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Are they?

Are 8 out of 10 good christians, well no, but they do identify as christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

 

[Rkootknir]

Where did i say they need to allow only one religion. The whole point is the government shouldn't favor any religion, or no region, they should just let communities freely decide for themselves. Its simply not their place to enforce any rule around this subject. Their only role should be in making sure the level of education the kids receive is sufficient. A few minutes praying or singing(any religion)will not hurt that goal.

If a community decides they want to give the muslim kids 15 minutes and the christian kids 15 minutes once a week let them do that. If there is only one scientology's kid, well he needs to realize the numbers are not in his favor. He and the other 5(whatever) kids can go play with their phones outside - they will appreciate the free time.

Ok. So you're saying that the US government should use the tax money of all their tax paying citizens to support the religious practices of all the different types of religion at a US public school? Can you imagine how much this will cost?

Remember, if you just send out the children who are not part of the majority religion you are effectively favouring the majority religion. And this is prohibited by the US constitution.

 

[Nicodeamus]

The US constitution doesn't allow for the Federal government to have public schools, it is currently unconstitutional.

 

[daveza]

It doesn't need to be fair,

The whole point is the government shouldn't favor any religion,

Which one is it ?

 

[daveza]

Related to the ( current ) topic -

There is already some religious discrimination in public schools - they close only on christian holidays.

It would be interesting should someone from an alternative on no religious affiliation demand the right to be taught on a christian holiday.