SA proposes rules for fracking shale gas

Quantum Theory said:
Has fracking ever been done in a Karoo type environment? I never said that it will deplete it anyway. I'm saying that redirecting and damming the little water that the Karoo has, even for small farming operations in the middle of nowhere, has caused irreparable damage in the past. Fracking will use a lot more water than these farms. Where will the water come from?
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They've fracked millions of wells since 1927. Pretty sure they have and still are...
 
DJ... said:
In Texas, which has little to no groundwater and limited water basins. So yes. And on a massive scale, far bigger than our single project in the Karoo...
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This from Wiki:

In Barnhart, Texas the aquifer ran dry because of industrial fracking: one landowner had 104 water wells (designed to supply fracking) dug into his land by his fracker tenants, and the population is left with little recourse for their dry taps.
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Quantum Theory said:
Exactly... DJ, the Karoo is not Wyoming, Colorado, or even Texas. It has much less water and it is a very fragile ecosystem.
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I'm not sure what you're expecting of me. I'm not a geologist, and nor is anyone here by the looks of things, so I guess either of us stating our case outright would be nothing more than a guess.

What I know is that fracking has never depleted a water supply. Apart from minor incidents caused by human and mechanical error, it has not damaged a single ecological system. If done correctly, it does not contaminate ground water.

So as much as you guys like to state that the Karoo is not Wyoming and so on, that doesn't do much to further this discussion to be honest. I've gone in to detail on my point of view in the other thread I linked you to earlier today where I explain that I am by no means outright stating that it is absolutely safe. Nothing ever is. What I am stating outright is that the economic benefit is absolutely immense, and we would be crazy to state that it must be banned based on emotional arguments...
 
Quantum Theory said:
This from Wiki:
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Yes, some wells will run dry. The farmer knew this when he agreed to be paid to let them use his land, as did the government that approved it. If the government does not redirect a water-supply to the community then you need to have a bitch with them about it, or evaluate the CSR initiatives by the company in question. But this is why they are undertaking advanced exploration, to properly understand the water basins in the Karoo.

If a few nomadic farmers are put out by this, I'm actually okay with that. If ordinary farmers can find evidence that the water will be depleted and their lives ruined, then by all means, they can present it. They're given that opportunity...
 
DJ... said:
I'm not sure what you're expecting of me. I'm not a geologist, and nor is anyone here by the looks of things, so I guess either of us stating our case outright would be nothing more than a guess.

What I know is that fracking has never depleted a water supply. Apart from minor incidents caused by human and mechanical error, it has not damaged a single ecological system. If done correctly, it does not contaminate ground water.

So as much as you guys like to state that the Karoo is not Wyoming and so on, that doesn't do much to further this discussion to be honest. I've gone in to detail on my point of view in the other thread I linked you to earlier today where I explain that I am by no means outright stating that it is absolutely safe. Nothing ever is. What I am stating outright is that the economic benefit is absolutely immense, and we would be crazy to state that it must be banned based on emotional arguments...
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I'm asking you questions, as you said it was all hippie BS... Do you agree that my water supply concerns is not hippie BS?
 
Quantum Theory said:
I'm asking you questions, as you said it was all hippie BS... Do you agree that my water supply concerns is not hippie BS?
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Your concern is perfectly valid. But that's all it is. It is not an educated opinion based on research of the water basins of the Karoo. I am concerned that the derivatives market is still under-regulated and poses more of a risk than the Karoo issue. We all have our concerns, but that's all that they are. I personally leave the analysis to the experts, and with millions of wells fracked since 1927, and thousands of pages of meta-analysis over decades of research, I side with the pro-fracking argument.

BTW, we mine in desolate areas as well. Mining poses the same risks, and more in some cases. Are we to ban mining?
 
daveza said:
And if the one in a million happens is Shell going to resupply water for those living in the Karoo ?
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Ask the government what the punitive clauses are in the regulations when they're tabled. I can't answer that question. Nobody can yet.

But basing a decision on banning something based on a one in a million chance of something possibly happening is unreasonable. In addition, no evidence exists yet that this is the case, so it's simply conjecture that you're working with. I've worked with the facts so far presented. That's not to say that your concerns aren't valid, but calling for bans based on people's perceptions that are usually shaped from hippie morons with no science; organisations proven to lie about their research; and documentaries that have been thoroughly debunked and their lies pointed out; is moronic imo...
 
Ask the government what the punitive clauses are in the regulations when they're tabled.
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Punitive clauses won't help those in the Karoo if they have no water - it's not like they can drink money.

Maybe it's only an outside risk, but it's a risk too far in this particular case.
 
daveza said:
Punitive clauses won't help those in the Karoo if they have no water - it's not like they can drink money.

Maybe it's only an outside risk, but it's a risk too far in this particular case.
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No evidence exists for this ever happening. It's a risk that you've made up, unless you have the specific geology reports and analysis of the proposed fracking areas?
 
But I'm off to watch some tele and try to digitally catch Red John.

I enjoy these debates - they're always challenging, but really, no evidence exists that fracking is going to destroy the Karoo. And no geology reports of the area and analysis has made it to the public domain. So we have a choice - we can debate this using existing facts, or we can debate this from a "what if the moon crashes into a fracking station" perspective. I prefer the former...
 
Which of all the incapable departments would ensure compliance to the rules? The same ones responsible for the disaster with the coal mines? No control at all.
 
Stokstert said:
Which of all the incapable departments would ensure compliance to the rules? The same ones responsible for the disaster with the coal mines? No control at all.
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Which coal mines disaster the DMR lacked compliance to the rules? What were the rules that DMR did not ensure compliance?
 
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