Salaries in job posts

[Messugga]

Sure, but you're picking an extreme outlier to make that point. 99% of companies are not offering TC vastly different from salary.

This is quite a common practice in tech with US companies. Equity is part of the standard package of principals and above, as well as senior managers and above, where I'm at.

 

[Johnatan56]

Stocks and/or bonuses are a significant part of the salary at all levels. You’re also leaving out Microsoft, NVIDIA, Netflix, Oracle, Intel, AMD, IBM, Apple, Adobe, Broadcom, Qualcomm, Intuit, Accenture, Alight, and a hoard of smaller firms that do exactly the same. Not to mention every single investment bank, hedge fund and prop shop.


I didn’t say they were the norm, but it’s a ton of very highly paid jobs that don’t disclose TC in their adverts. If you write them of as “kak pay”, that’s on you.

This is quite a common practice in tech with US companies. Equity is part of the standard package of principals and above, as well as senior managers and above, where I'm at.

Again, both of you are arguing higher level senior or founders, they are a small minority of positions.
And nothing stops you mentioning that there are stock options in the salary advert.

And I did not say they were bad pay, I said that getting a salary band helps you know whether it's worth interviewing in the first place. There are tons of job posts that are written like they want a senior, but salary is junior level, wasting everyone's time.

In all of these larger companies @cguy mentioned you can figure out the salary well enough based on brand name, and those investment banks and stuff you often get headhunted where those headhunters know what salary it is they can offer as min, you can say what you want and it can be passed on to company with answer before there is even an interview.

 

[Messugga]

Again, both of you are arguing higher level senior or founders, they are a small minority of positions.
And nothing stops you mentioning that there are stock options in the salary advert.

And I did not say they were bad pay, I said that getting a salary band helps you know whether it's worth interviewing in the first place. There are tons of job posts that are written like they want a senior, but salary is junior level, wasting everyone's time.

In all of these larger companies @cguy mentioned you can figure out the salary well enough based on brand name, and those investment banks and stuff you often get headhunted where those headhunters know what salary it is they can offer as min, you can say what you want and it can be passed on to company with answer before there is even an interview.

Not at all. Senior manager is solidly middle management.
In my company, it's manager, senior manager, director, senior director, VP, SVP.
Principal developers are experienced developers, but they're not the top tier of devs either.

 

[Johnatan56]

Not at all. Senior manager is solidly middle management.
In my company, it's manager, senior manager, director, senior director, VP, SVP.
Principal developers are experienced developers, but they're not the top tier of devs either.

So junior -> intermediate -> senior -> principal -> staff in your company? Or is it staff > principal?
How many juniors are there for every intermediate, how many intermediate for every senior, and how many seniors for every principal? Or better, how many juniors, intermediate and seniors are there for one principal?

The point of principal is leading org wide projects/across teams, there shouldn't be more than one per like 10 devs or something.
After that, how many companies have principal engineers, and how many of those tie a significant part of salary into stock/non-fixed bonus?

You're both missing the point, salary band or at least min is an indicator whether the job matches salary expectations, we all work for salary. If you have e.g. shares or something, advertise that it has stock options, not saying you can't add it, actually arguing that you do add it (not how much, just that there is).

 

[cguy]

So junior -> intermediate -> senior -> principal -> staff in your company? Or is it staff > principal?

Generally staff then principal, then possibly senior principal, then distinguished, then senior distinguished, then fellow, then senior fellow.

How many juniors are there for every intermediate, how many intermediate for every senior, and how many seniors for every principal? Or better, how many juniors, intermediate and seniors are there for one principal?

The point of principal is leading org wide projects/across teams, there shouldn't be more than one per like 10 devs or something.
After that, how many companies have principal engineers, and how many of those tie a significant part of salary into stock/non-fixed bonus?

A lot, but the point is that even the entry level roles have a significant share component.

You're both missing the point, salary band or at least min is an indicator whether the job matches salary expectations, we all work for salary.

I don’t. My salary is only a tiny part of my compensation. This is true for almost everyone at my company. We also don’t have levels or titles (beyond the title we were hired with).

If you have e.g. shares or something, advertise that it has stock options, not saying you can't add it, actually arguing that you do add it (not how much, just that there is).

Many do say, but you have no idea how many shares you’re going to get or even what level you’re interviewing for. Even if they say it’s a staff level role in the advert, they will offer you senior, staff, senior staff, or principal role, etc. based on your interview performance and other factors.

 

[Messugga]

So junior -> intermediate -> senior -> principal -> staff in your company? Or is it staff > principal?
How many juniors are there for every intermediate, how many intermediate for every senior, and how many seniors for every principal? Or better, how many juniors, intermediate and seniors are there for one principal?

The point of principal is leading org wide projects/across teams, there shouldn't be more than one per like 10 devs or something.
After that, how many companies have principal engineers, and how many of those tie a significant part of salary into stock/non-fixed bonus?

You're both missing the point, salary band or at least min is an indicator whether the job matches salary expectations, we all work for salary. If you have e.g. shares or something, advertise that it has stock options, not saying you can't add it, actually arguing that you do add it (not how much, just that there is).

We don't have staff, we have fellow, which I guess is an equivalent.

I'll let my boss know that our organisation of 9000 has the incorrect ratio of principal developers to senior developers according to a random guy on the internet.

Our equity packages make up significant percentages of annual salary. As in 30% as a minimum. It goes up quickly and significantly. It's a big factor and it's pretty normal with other large US tech firms too.

 

[longboy]

I always advertise a Salary Range.

I don't like to waste people's time.

 

[Johnatan56]

Generally staff then principal, then possibly senior principal, then distinguished, then senior distinguished, then fellow, then senior fellow.

Completely company dependent on what they want to name stuff. The point was that there's quite a few rungs under that, irrelevant of if staff or principal is first.

A lot, but the point is that even the entry level roles have a significant share component.

Depending on the company, sure, but again, a minority.

I don’t. My salary is only a tiny part of my compensation. This is true for almost everyone at my company. We also don’t have levels or titles (beyond the title we were hired with).

Okay, "we all work for money", mistyped, but context should have given that away.

Many do say, but you have no idea how many shares you’re going to get or even what level you’re interviewing for. Even if they say it’s a staff level role in the advert, they will offer you senior, staff, senior staff, or principal role, etc. based on your interview performance and other factors.

And yet most companies that large will give you an indication if the interview is worth it.

And again, we are arguing about a tiny percentage of jobs. This argument is a waste of time.

We don't have staff, we have fellow, which I guess is an equivalent.

I'll let my boss know that our organisation of 9000 has the incorrect ratio of principal developers to senior developers according to a random guy on the internet.

Wtf are you talking about? My point was that you have a lot of people below principal devs.

Our equity packages make up significant percentages of annual salary. As in 30% as a minimum. It goes up quickly and significantly. It's a big factor and it's pretty normal with other large US tech firms too.

Sure, but not the norm in South Africa.
Btw, based in NY or California, there's salary ranges.

Again, since Google was given as an example:

The point is that salary range is there as a norm since a vast majority of roles that salary band is what you're paid. You can say there are options and stuff, nothing stops you.

Think this is my last post on the matter as you're both just completely missing the point, thinking that because you're an exception you must be the norm.

 

[cguy]

We don't have staff, we have fellow, which I guess is an equivalent.

The first time I met a Fellow engineer, I thought he was jolly good.

 

[Messugga]

The first time I met a Fellow engineer, I thought he was jolly good.

They're top people for sure. Very merry fellows.

 

[cguy]

Completely company dependent on what they want to name stuff.

Depending on the company, sure, but again, a minority.

Okay, "we all work for money", mistyped, but context should have given that away.

And yet most companies that large will give you an indication if the interview is worth it.

And again, we are arguing about a tiny percentage of jobs. This argument is a waste of time.


Wtf are you talking about? My point was that you have a lot of people below principal devs.

Sure, but not the norm in South Africa.
Btw, based in NY or California, there's salary ranges.

Again, since Google was given as an example:
View attachment 1750823
The point is that salary range is there as a norm since a vast majority of roles that salary band is what you're paid. You can say there are options and stuff, nothing stops you.

Think this is my last post on the matter as you're both just completely missing the point, thinking that because you're an exception you must be the norm.

Like I said earlier, you’re the only person talking about the norm. We’re talking about TC in adverts, and specifically if no range means kak pay. The best roles in the world (not the norm) don’t even generally give TC ranges, so if you skip companies that don’t give ranges you also skip the best paying companies - that’s the point.

 

[Bliksis]

Nonsense. There is no reason NOT to give your expectation in an interview. This whole pay me what I am worth is BS. Companies will pay you according to their current staff/budget.

No, I'd like to know what I'm applying for before the time.

 

[Johnatan56]

Like I said earlier, you’re the only person talking about the norm. We’re talking about TC in adverts, and specifically if no range means kak pay.

When did I say that? I said it avoids situations where you wouldn't have applied to the role as no indication of salary.
All your arguments so far have been that TC might be higher than just salary for the top 0.01% of jobs from FAANG/hedge funds/etc., not from normal companies. You seem to have replied to the wrong person if that's what you think I argued for.

 

[cguy]

When did I say that? I said it avoids situations where you wouldn't have applied to the role as no indication of salary.
All your arguments so far have been that TC might be higher than just salary for the top 0.01% of jobs from FAANG/hedge funds/etc., not from normal companies. You seem to have replied to the wrong person if that's what you think I argued for.

I think that you missed the context (and therefore the sarcasm) when you responded to post #149.

 

[Zuluzebra]

No, I'd like to know what I'm applying for before the time.

The Job Description should give you an idea..

 

[Bliksis]

The Job Description should give you an idea..

Most of the time not.

 

[Zuluzebra]

Most of the time not.

so let's blame everyone else then, it seems..

 

[ToxicBunny]

The Job Description should give you an idea..

The job description gives you an idea of what a company would expect from you from work output, but not what they value that output at.

 

[Zuluzebra]

The job description gives you an idea of what a company would expect from you from work output, but not what they value that output at.

I can understand that pop up shops differ quite a bit in terms of salaries, but larger local or international companies don't. So if Standard Bank is looking for a Java developer with 3-5 years experience, and Capitec is looking for a Java developer with 3-5 years experience, both will have a similar Job descriptions and both will have similar pay (in most cases). What some people in this thread refers to is that both companies (SB and Capitec) needs to tell you the maximum they are willing to pay you before you even walk in the door for the interview.... this is la la land mentality...

 

[ToxicBunny]

I can understand that pop up shops differ quite a bit in terms of salaries, but larger local or international companies don't. So if Standard Bank is looking for a Java developer with 3-5 years experience, and Capitec is looking for a Java developer with 3-5 years experience, both will have a similar Job descriptions and both will have similar pay (in most cases). What some people in this thread refers to is that both companies (SB and Capitec) needs to tell you the maximum they are willing to pay you before you even walk in the door for the interview.... this is la la land mentality...

They do and always have differed wildly in salaries. The fact that you think they don't is naive in the extreme.

And yes they should, I've just been down this road with a major corporate and a salary range would have just short circuited a process that didn't need to happen eventually.