Self Defense - suggestions please

[Nerfherder]

That's when they kill you. Please watch this, the perp was maced in the face and shot repeatedly yet still beat the cop's ass. If backup hadn't arrived he would've killed the man who shot him several times.

[video=youtube;23c7ovuSd2U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23c7ovuSd2U[/video]

Yes, but that just shows that when a guy is on you it does not matter what you have. That's how that guy died the other day, he pulled a gun on a hijacker.


Point is you use measures like this when you have distance. (and the right distance). Most of the mace went in to the air, was probably blown away. Used effectively the guy would be chocking on the ground.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

I've seen that numerous times before. It why I started with this:



There will always be those extreme examples where people are on drugs/freaks of nature/etc., and there it's kill or be killed. But most of the time the criminals you're confronted with are just regular people with a bit of adrenalin pumping.

You seem to be pretty black and white on the topic though.

Let's do a spot of role reversal. If someone's hurting you with a barrage of rubber pellets and you have a gun in your hand, you know that firing in their direction can make the barrage stop if you score a hit - what are you going to do? You already have a complete disrespect for the law, so think like a perp for the answer, not as TehStranger. Now put yourself back in the victim's shoes and tell me if you'd like to have a toy in your hand or a proper firearm?

 

[skeptic_SA]

So you're going to leave an untreated metal object (including a 6" nail and iron washer as firing components) in the rain, armed with a .22 shell (also uncovered) and triggered by a thick piece of string?? If you call that reliable then you're dafter than a brush.

An electronic device is in a case designed for outdoor use and long periods of idle time. Nothing is perfect but I know which one I would pick.

Not sure WHAT your cousin was showing you. If it was behind the barn at the farm at the time... Then lets rather drop this. Do you even know what 6" inches looks like (15cm). Overstating length is unflattering. Ask ANY female. Additionally - lets have a link to this waterproof electronic device you're advocating please?

@OP - The units I've got are made from a thermo plastic and have galvanized steel fittings. The brass cartridge is sealed except for the crimped ends. A dab of petroleum jelly as an added water ingress preventative would sort that out.

 

[Heisenborg]

This is becoming a typical news24 thread discussion

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Most of the mace went in to the air, was probably blown away. Used effectively the guy would be chocking on the ground.

[video=youtube;PNsywFWB4aI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNsywFWB4aI[/video]

Watch 3:25 and tell me if he had a gun and wanted to use it he couldn't shoot the other?

 

[flippakitten]

This is becoming a typical news24 thread discussion

For now, until you can't comment there anymore. lol

 

[TEXTILE GUY]

Dogs

The thing with guns and the like, is that we - humans - are the weak link.

Dogs are good alarm raisers. Dogs - well some - dont see fear, and the thing is, no matter what defense you have, it all comes down to making the intruder think twice.

 

[Nerfherder]

[video=youtube;PNsywFWB4aI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNsywFWB4aI[/video]

Watch 3:25 and tell me if he had a gun and wanted to use it he couldn't shoot the other?

Not effectively no. The guy preps by closing his eyes and holding his breath, he can't open them and when he does he can't function. If he had a gun he would be able to just shoot it in to the dark....


I'm even more convinced that shooting someone in the face with a pepper gun would **** them up long enough for the police/security to come

 

[Nerfherder]

Dogs

The thing with guns and the like, is that we - humans - are the weak link.

Dogs are good alarm raisers. Dogs - well some - dont see fear, and the thing is, no matter what defense you have, it all comes down to making the intruder think twice.

Ya, basically make someone else's house look easier to get into.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Not effectively no. The guy preps by closing his eyes and holding his breath, he can't open them and when he does he can't function. If he had a gun he would be able to just shoot it in to the dark....


I'm even more convinced that shooting someone in the face with a pepper gun would **** them up long enough for the police/security to come

We could settle this? Give me a pellet gun and pepper spray me. I will try to shoot you, if I get a hit I get R 100,000 from you. Does that sound like a pretty big gamble to you? Now imagine if it were a real gun and it was your LIFE at stake.

 

[Nerfherder]

We could settle this? Give me a pellet gun and pepper spray me. I will try to shoot you, if I get a hit I get R 100,000 from you. Does that sound like a pretty big gamble to you? Now imagine if it were a real gun and it was your LIFE at stake.

OK, come climb over my wall.


I can see basic reading and comprehension is not your thing so might be why Ill probably have to help you out with the money anyway.

That's why we have alarms, gates, and early warning systems. So that you are not forced to face an assailant. IF you are facing an assailant you are clearly ****ed anyway, as per the vid.

 

[TEXTILE GUY]

Ya, basically make someone else's house look easier to get into.

Pretty much.

Honestly - the thugs that prey on people arent wired like normal folk.

They are looking for the easy target - and not much we do will change that, they are fekked up.

Unfortunately, defense starts with you and yours.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

OK, come climb over my wall.


I can see basic reading and comprehension is not your thing so might be why Ill probably have to help you out with the money anyway.

That's why we have alarms, gates, and early warning systems. So that you are not forced to face an assailant. IF you are facing an assailant you are clearly ****ed anyway, as per the vid.

Explain to me what an early warning is going to do other than warn you to get your pepper spray? You're not necessarily screwed if they get in, you have the upper hand by knowing the layout of your house. You probably also have the upper hand of knowing from which direction they entered, they don't know where you're coming from. Had that cop gone for kill shots he would also have ended the fight very quickly.

An early warning is just that, an early warning. It is neither a solid offense nor defense, it warns you to prepare your defense. I'm going to pose the same question to you as I did to TehStranger:

Let's do a spot of role reversal. If someone's hurting you with a barrage of rubber pellets (or in your case, pepper spray) and you have a gun in your hand, you know that firing in their direction can make the barrage (or in your case, pepper spray) stop if you score a hit - what are you going to do? You already have a complete disrespect for the law, so think like a perp for the answer, not as Nerfherder. Now put yourself back in the victim's shoes and tell me if you'd like to have a toy (or in your case, pepper spray) in your hand or a proper firearm?

That is my point.

 

[TehStranger]

Let's do a spot of role reversal. If someone's hurting you with a barrage of rubber pellets and you have a gun in your hand, you know that firing in their direction can make the barrage stop if you score a hit - what are you going to do? You already have a complete disrespect for the law, so think like a perp for the answer, not as TehStranger. Now put yourself back in the victim's shoes and tell me if you'd like to have a toy in your hand or a proper firearm?

One of two things will happen. I'll either turn and hightail it out of there (depending on how much pain I'm in and if I can actually run, I mean I'm only here to steal your TV, it's not worth the effort), or I'll start spraying bullets in your direction.

Returning gunfire when you can't see properly (mace) and have a cracked rib (rubber bullets) is incredibly difficult. More so when you're getting pelted 2 or 3 times a second (assuming a fair few round miss you). So potentially I'd fire off a round or 3 all over the place, decide that this ****storm is not worth it, and get out.

You need to understand that unless it's a revenge attack with the specific aim of hurting someone, criminals love soft targets. And who wouldn't? It's much easier to rob an old lady of her purse than a 6'5 ex-marine that's packing guns on his arms and in his holster. It's the same with house breaking. You don't need fort knox level security, you just need more security than the houses around you.

In this specific example of a farm, with the bad press associated with farm murders, I wouldn't comply unless I had to. There is a lot of anger and hate out there, and complying will potentially end in throwing your life away for very little.

Also you've missed something vital here. I've already said (more than once in this thread) that a proper firearm is ideal, but it's a heavy commitment that not everyone has the ability to deal with. Shooting at the range or even hunting is different to actually shooting at someone.

If you're not sure whether a firearm is for you, a very dangerous paintball gun with rubber and mace rounds is an alternative.

We could settle this? Give me a pellet gun and pepper spray me. I will try to shoot you, if I get a hit I get R 100,000 from you. Does that sound like a pretty big gamble to you? Now imagine if it were a real gun and it was your LIFE at stake.

Can we do this on a farm? And can I mace you with mace ball rounds out of a paintball marker from some distance, just after you've climbed over a wall? Would you still be game?

 

[Heisenborg]

One of two things will happen. I'll either turn and hightail it out of there (depending on how much pain I'm in and if I can actually run, I mean I'm only here to steal your TV, it's not worth the effort), or I'll start spraying bullets in your direction.

Returning gunfire when you can't see properly (mace) and have a cracked rib (rubber bullets) is incredibly difficult. More so when you're getting pelted 2 or 3 times a second (assuming a fair few round miss you). So potentially I'd fire off a round or 3 all over the place, decide that this ****storm is not worth it, and get out.

You need to understand that unless it's a revenge attack with the specific aim of hurting someone, criminals love soft targets. And who wouldn't? It's much easier to rob an old lady of her purse than a 6'5 ex-marine that's packing guns on his arms and in his holster. It's the same with house breaking. You don't need fort knox level security, you just need more security than the houses around you.

In this specific example of a farm, with the bad press associated with farm murders, I wouldn't comply unless I had to. There is a lot of anger and hate out there, and complying will potentially end in throwing your life away for very little.

Also you've missed something vital here. I've already said (more than once in this thread) that a proper firearm is ideal, but it's a heavy commitment that not everyone has the ability to deal with. Shooting at the range or even hunting is different to actually shooting at someone.

If you're not sure whether a firearm is for you, a very dangerous paintball gun with rubber and mace rounds is an alternative.

Ribs dont just crack

 

[AntiGanda]

Not effectively no. The guy preps by closing his eyes and holding his breath, he can't open them and when he does he can't function. If he had a gun he would be able to just shoot it in to the dark....


I'm even more convinced that shooting someone in the face with a pepper gun would **** them up long enough for the police/security to come

A nice stream of pepper can be effective.

Nothing is 100% reliable, so why fek around with toys and things. Get the best.

 

[AntiGanda]

One of two things will happen. I'll either turn and hightail it out of there (depending on how much pain I'm in and if I can actually run, I mean I'm only here to steal your TV, it's not worth the effort), or I'll start spraying bullets in your direction.

Returning gunfire when you can't see properly (mace) and have a cracked rib (rubber bullets) is incredibly difficult. More so when you're getting pelted 2 or 3 times a second (assuming a fair few round miss you). So potentially I'd fire off a round or 3 all over the place, decide that this ****storm is not worth it, and get out.

You need to understand that unless it's a revenge attack with the specific aim of hurting someone, criminals love soft targets. And who wouldn't? It's much easier to rob an old lady of her purse than a 6'5 ex-marine that's packing guns on his arms and in his holster. It's the same with house breaking. You don't need fort knox level security, you just need more security than the houses around you.

In this specific example of a farm, with the bad press associated with farm murders, I wouldn't comply unless I had to. There is a lot of anger and hate out there, and complying will potentially end in throwing your life away for very little.

Also you've missed something vital here. I've already said (more than once in this thread) that a proper firearm is ideal, but it's a heavy commitment that not everyone has the ability to deal with. Shooting at the range or even hunting is different to actually shooting at someone.

If you're not sure whether a firearm is for you, a very dangerous paintball gun with rubber and mace rounds is an alternative.

What rubber bullets are you talking about?

Police ones are not available and paintball rubber is a joke - they won't crack ribs.
IT IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TO A REAL GUN!

If you don't believe me, pop into your local gun store and start the conversation ... come back feeling like a poepal and tell us about it.

 

[TehStranger]

Ribs dont just crack

They can after getting hit with a few high velocity rubber ball rounds.

What rubber bullets are you talking about?

Police ones are not available and paintball rubber is a joke - they won't crack ribs.
IT IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TO A REAL GUN!

If you don't believe me, pop into your local gun store and start the conversation ... come back feeling like a poepal and tell us about it.

You clearly have issues reading. Go back through my posts. Read them slowly. Read them out aloud. Make notes. Then come back and respond.

A real gun is better, but if you can't or don't want to handle it a paintball gun is better than being unarmed.

Disclaimer: I'm a gun owner, and have spent many hours chatting to others (in and out of gun stores) about this.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

One of two things will happen. I'll either turn and hightail it out of there (depending on how much pain I'm in and if I can actually run, I mean I'm only here to steal your TV, it's not worth the effort), or I'll start spraying bullets in your direction.

Returning gunfire when you can't see properly (mace) and have a cracked rib (rubber bullets) is incredibly difficult. More so when you're getting pelted 2 or 3 times a second (assuming a fair few round miss you). So potentially I'd fire off a round or 3 all over the place, decide that this ****storm is not worth it, and get out.

You need to understand that unless it's a revenge attack with the specific aim of hurting someone, criminals love soft targets. And who wouldn't? It's much easier to rob an old lady of her purse than a 6'5 ex-marine that's packing guns on his arms and in his holster. It's the same with house breaking. You don't need fort knox level security, you just need more security than the houses around you.

In this specific example of a farm, with the bad press associated with farm murders, I wouldn't comply unless I had to. There is a lot of anger and hate out there, and complying will potentially end in throwing your life away for very little.

Also you've missed something vital here. I've already said (more than once in this thread) that a proper firearm is ideal, but it's a heavy commitment that not everyone has the ability to deal with. Shooting at the range or even hunting is different to actually shooting at someone.

If you're not sure whether a firearm is for you, a very dangerous paintball gun with rubber and mace rounds is an alternative.

It may be incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. Would you chance someone firing in your direction three times with live ammo? I sure as hell wouldn't, the risk is too high. Carrying a toy gun is also making yourself a softer target than that 6'5" marine with guns hanging from every limb - don't you want to make yourself the hardest target possible?

Going with what you say of just wanting to get valuables and hightail it out of there, why introduce the possibility of them getting violent by shooting a toy gun at them? Let them take what they want and claim from insurance. Sure, there's the chance they might get violent anyway, which is why I'm adamant you should fight fire with fire, but a toy gun is likely to escalate the situation to a level you want to avoid at all costs.

I hear you, you have a kid in the house. Your firearm is to be locked in a safe where young ones can't get it. All of your decent gun safes will auto lock after a few seconds, so you don't even have to worry about forgetting to lock it. Just avoid those cheap R 1,000 jobbies that can be bumped, they're quite easy to spot because of the low price and they normally sport a keypad with 1 through 0 and A and B to the sides of zero. A hard smack to the top while simultaneously turning the knob opens them, you want something that takes skill and time to get into. If a firearm is increasing risk in your house, you're not looking after it properly.

I agree that ending someone's life is VERY different than to shooting at the range, but if I have to choose between your family and the perp...

 

[Nerfherder]

Explain to me what an early warning is going to do other than warn you to get your pepper spray? You're not necessarily screwed if they get in, you have the upper hand by knowing the layout of your house. You probably also have the upper hand of knowing from which direction they entered, they don't know where you're coming from. Had that cop gone for kill shots he would also have ended the fight very quickly.

An early warning is just that, an early warning. It is neither a solid offense nor defense, it warns you to prepare your defense. I'm going to pose the same question to you as I did to TehStranger:

Yes. Early warning tells you to go get your gun/weapon. You don't want to actually have to defend yourself, this guy doesn't want a confrontation either, he wants your stuff. If he gets over the wall and the alarm goes off he is going to run, unless he is dead set on killing and raping you.
Chances are he breaks in to peoples houses every night. He doesn't need to take a chance finding out what kind of defence setup you have inside. He wants to get in, take your stuff and get out.
Alarm makes them run 90% of the time unless they already have access to the house.
If the guy is lurking in your garden and you shoot him in the face with a peper ball, the guy is going to run. You surprised him and he gets a mega fright. He is going to run, its his best option. Why must he just start shooting in the dark and wait for the next attack ?

Robbers OP is get in, get out.


Again, this is not a hijack scenario. We have already said, unless you see the guys coming from a mile away your best thing is to comply.