Sometimes things are not what they seem

[kilo39]

Once upon a time America's name was great - the big (benevolent) brother of the world - now their name is simply trash (politically anyway) - due to the millions killed by their policies.

Turning a country into a slag heap does not a good reputation make.

Israel's actions in general are synonymous with the Nazis - they learnt their lesson well.

 

[BeVonk!]

I'm asking you to back up your statement that the US has installed and protected democracies around the world. I want you to name one. Just one.

unless you believe US pressure on the old SA regime had nothing to do with us becoming a democracy fo all?

 

[arf9999]

Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines, South Korea. You asked for one I gave you four

Taiwan? How? The only thing that the US did for Taiwan was to provide miliatary help for the Nationalists (KMT) set up a government in 1946 with which they ran Taiwan under martial law until 1996, when the Taiwanese held their own elections.

Phillipines: The US bought the Phillipines from Spain in 1898 (which resulted in the Philippine-American War which only officially ended in 1913) and finally granted independence and voting rights in 1946... not what I would call promoting democracy.

South Korea was not "liberated" by the US, it was a United Nations force.

Japan... hmmm. Japan had "democratic" elections long before the allies defeated it in WW2. In fact it was a much more democratic state than many of the USA's allies in the "war on terror" (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kuwait etc.)

 

[neio]

as i said its no use...
bye gents it is always good to have a debate with ignorant arrogant pro american people.

Labels:
Ignorant - no, you clearly displayed your's tho.
Arrogant - yes I am, knowledge tends to support my arrogance.
Pro American - not always, I will condemn actions if they are wrong just as all clear headed adults do.

Decrying the USA's policy's and hating all Americans without reason is your problem, not mine, dont get offended when you are challenged on your words, adults debate, children argue.

Good bye, dont let the door hit your @ss on the way out.

 

[BeVonk!]

as i said its no use...
bye gents it is always good to have a debate with ignorant arrogant pro american people.

Debate? When did you even take part in one? Throwing stupid remarks on the table is not debating.

This is the problem with all these Anti-American brigade. Throws crap they've seen or heard elsewhere at you without ever working the logic of it all out for themselves. Real Michael Moore brain-dead types.

Example: It's all about oil! Yeah so? Obviously the US needs oil to run their economy and they will do what they need to to secure their supplies. Who will do it any other way? Will China (example) sit back and say "hey boys, the oil is up ... back to horses people." No. This US and Israel hatred makes people blind and stupid.

America has done much for this country - and the people seem to hate them anyway. Pathetic really.

 

[icyrus]

Once upon a time America's name was great - the big (benevolent) brother of the world - now their name is simply trash (politically anyway) - due to the millions killed by their policies.

Turning a country into a slag heap does not a good reputation make.

Israel's actions in general are synonymous with the Nazis - they learnt their lesson well.

Those are quite strong statements. What do you base them on?

 

[Darth Garth]

unless you believe US pressure on the old SA regime had nothing to do with us becoming a democracy fo all?

The game was truely up for the S.A govt when Ronald Reagon veto of the stiff Sanctions Bill against S.A was overridden by the US Congress which was a very rare event.

Not so much the govt but rather folks like the Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition in the US that did a lot to highlight the cause and sway public opinion in favour of sanctions.

 

[BeVonk!]

Let me also put it this way ...

what if America did not come to the aid of Europe during two world wars? What would we have had now?

And those wars - as well as Korea etc - was mostly fought by Americans with American equipment.

The world actually owes America some gratitude ... but no ... memories are too short.

 

[BeVonk!]

Not so much the govt but rather folks like the Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition in the US that did a lot to highlight the cause and sway public opinion in favour of sanctions.

And that is what is so beautiful about the US ... the people actually have power - a true democracy.

 

[Darth Garth]

what if America did not come to the aid of Europe during two world wars? What would we have had now?

Indeed but the Russians did the bulk of the fighting and the dying and was well on their way to Berlin ... most likely the C.C.C.P would have stretched from the Urals to the Medittirean and the PC game Red Alert would have been a reality .

 

[Turtle]

What about South Africa?

You're joking right?

Oh geez, you're actually not joking. I suppose you've forgotten how Americans also supported the apartheid government when it was convenient to them e.g. while they were fighting the "commies", to which the ANC were seen as linked btw. American "pressure" had very little to do with the end of apartheid, study your history books. The Nats were effectively losing against a growing armed resistance ... a peaceful democracy was 'negotiated' from a position of weakness. Regardless of sanctions the system was also just by itself a complete macro-economic disaster (by its incredibly stupid design, but the armed struggle and resultant political volatility also hurt) and so the system was crumbling from within, while most whites did not even really support it anyway (remember the referendum, over 70% voted yes IIRC). Apartheid was on its last legs and would have been basically regardless of anything done by the Americans.

Yes the Americans have done a few good things e.g. the Marshall Plan which I assume you were referring to (they didn't "come to the aid of Europe" during WWII btw they were drawn in because they were attacked themselves), but you seem to be just blindly praising them and totally ignoring all the screwups they've also made.

I also hope you were just joking when you mentioned Coca Cola. Coke is nice but it's hardly an advancement of humankind, and you might also do yourself good to read up on how that company abuses its dominant position to unfairly squash competition in other countries by blocking market entry points.

Try to take a balanced view here. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either.

 

[kilo39]

Let me also put it this way ...

what if America did not come to the aid of Europe during two world wars? What would we have had now?

And those wars - as well as Korea etc - was mostly fought by Americans with American equipment.

The world actually owes America some gratitude ... but no ... memories are too short.

(Some) people on this forum seem to have no concept of time - that was then - this is now!

The political (and then drug) wars of South America (dozens of them!) - thousands of innocents (woman, children, tortured and killed) - due to america's foreign policy.
The Vietnam War (agent orange)
Cambodia (pol-pot)
Afganistan - the russians couldn't win it - how is america going to (long term?)
The second Iraq war (hundreds of thousands killed over non-existent wmd)
Israel - thousands killed (innocent men woman and children) -
Support of despotic regimes throughout ME - kuwait and Saudi Arabia (and the rest)
Turkey (support of a brutal regime)
...

but the news of the moment is Israel - how can destroying airports, bridges, fuel depots, power generation plants - deaths of civilians - be justifiable - in any sane world? But we want peace - while we drop our latest bombs on your (kids) heads...

Ja, america is great

 

[BeVonk!]

Indeed but the Russians did the bulk of the fighting and the dying and was well on their way to Berlin ... most likely the C.C.C.P would have stretched from the Urals to the Medittirean and the PC game Red Alert would have been a reality .

In WW2 they did yes, but fortunately they did not get the chance to rule the world with their interpretation of "the people shall govern".

And again if it wasn't for the US we might have all been working on collective farms now - as part of a Party project called "Maze for Moscow"

 

[BeVonk!]

kilo39, while you are at making lists, please list what America has done right too (look around you and think for just a moment). You may find the latter list to be way longer than the first - if you are honest that is.

 

[Darth Garth]

And again if it wasn't for the US we might have all been working on collective farms now - as part of a Party project called "Maze for Moscow"

But me and Angelo as loyal lefties on this forum would have been the party bosses having several mistresses and a weekend house or "Dacha" in Hermanus and driving the lastest BMW.

The rest of you would have been the ones on the collective farms toiling away for the socialist workers paradise but we would visit you folks every now and again to give a rousing patriotic and droning one hour speech full of useless and meaningless party slogans on how great life is in the People's Democratic Republic of Azania .

Sigh ... one can dream .

 

[BeVonk!]

I also hope you were just joking when you mentioned Coca Cola.

So you don't understand ?

 

[BeVonk!]

Turtle, I'm sure I've said America has made many mistakes somewhere in my post. As I said to kilo39, make the list - doing so will show you the balance.

 

[Turtle]

So you don't understand ?

No, what's so great about Coca Cola? They're (just) a successful soft-drink company. Or am I missing something here?

 

[BeVonk!]

They brought us Coca-Cola, Nike, Elvis and Chuck Norris

Turtle, that means I made a joke.

 

[kilo39]

kilo39, while you are at making lists, please list what America has done right too (look around you and think for just a moment). You may find the latter list to be way longer than the first - if you are honest that is.

Ja, ja I know all that (and I concur) BUT - latest actions in Lebanon, Gaza are unacceptable (all the dead kids [everywhere] are unacceptable) - and let's state it upfront - Israel is America - they are inseparable.

America's war on terror is their long term plan for total domination - one world, one vote, one coca-cola (one barcode)... not all peeps agree.

I love america - but the bush cartel - is in this purely for their own financial gain - a big by-product of protecting the world's "freedom" - and america's draw on oil.

And Israel? (well isn't there something about the control of the worlds banking system) - and campaign dollars?

(AFAIK) there have been 'dozens' of settlements in the middle east -... and hundreds/thousands of kidnappings, bombings, killings - why all of a sudden now - do we have this massive display of force?