SONA 2021

rambo919 said:
Does it matter if it was living wages?

Simple economics means using the cheapest labour, if you have a small army of people that are cheaper to use than machines you will hire them, if machines are cheaper than labourers.... you will buy machines. Jobs are dynamically created and as soon as you tamper with them they start dissapearing.

Morals have nothing to do with what the farmer can actually afford to do with his limited resources.
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I was just wondering how it worked in the past. Then I guess the cheap labour is about to be a thing of the past.
 
ForceFate said:
I was just wondering how it worked in the past. Then I guess the cheap labour is about to be a thing of the past.
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It worked however was the most economical way of it working depending also on the charity of the particular farmer.

What many farmers did was provide (quality depending on the charity of the farmer) clothing, food, alcohol, housing, etc free of charge to their labourers and paying them a minor sum for luxuries. This is where the dop system came in, the farmers simply provided cheap wine they were already producing as part of labourer compensation.... the ANC made this illegal at some point forcing a change in compensation patterns.

When SA labour started becoming to expensive to actually use the farmers started using cheaper foreigners who by virtue of their having no problem with below minimum wage and requiring no mountain of extra taxes completely price the locals out of the market. The they started getting attacked by the locals and machines became cheaper.

If local labour was both affordable and trustable..... no one would use machines.

Getting everyone a living wage is not as simple as just demanding they get paid more. Every change the central government enforces has a cascade of unintentioned consequences.
 
vigras rojara said:
So not leasing anything then?
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The long term benefits of mechanization is big.
- It is a once-off capital expenditure.
- It doesn't get lazy
- It doesn't strike
- It can run optimal, 24/7
- It operates much faster
 
ConfusedR said:
The long term benefits of mechanization is big.
- It is a once-off capital expenditure.
- It doesn't get lazy
- It doesn't strike
- It can run optimal, 24/7
- It operates much faster
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Yes but it has to be paid for. Seems paying the workers a pittance is still more popular, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
I am somewhat amazed how someone so obviously intelligent can say that minimum wage increases cannot possibly lead to small businesses folding.

It's not the only thing obviously, there is also the mountain of complience costs that together with wages easily makes up half to three quarters of most small business expenses.
 
vigras rojara said:
Yes but it has to be paid for. Seems paying the workers a pittance is still more popular, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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We wouldn't be having this conversation if workers can be as fast, safe, efficient and profitable as mechanization.
 
All I can say is, most businesses know that the biggest cost of business is more often if not labour (and salaries) pending on the sector(s) you are participating in. When I first starting working in the corporate side of things, it was quickly drilled into me that I must be worth three times my cost of salary doing business and from experience I gathered set forth in my job I started to grasp why it was the case.

When the cost of labour is increased by state mandate, business do cut back on labour and other operational costs of doing business, and then alternatives are explored to remedy the given situation.

Automation is a viable alternative, conditionally, not only for saving on costs but also for growth.

We may run into the same scenario as what is happening in China, the people's republic of a dystopian future. Manufacturing is leaning towards automation for not only saving on operational costs but also to increase production.

South Africa will need to invest into industries like textiles where the industry is still dependent on labour where applicable.

We are falling short at upskilling our current labour force... What happened to the 'ambagskole'?

You think it is only white owned businesses who adapt, go have a look at which the benefactors of BIS are investing in. Black owned businesses also automate in every given sector.

Upskill and better education is most desired at this time. We need a larger technical workforce, and it is unfortune for many that our education standards and infrastructure have fallen behind.
 
vigras rojara said:
So not leasing anything then?
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That's what SAA did is it not? Bought aircraft, run out of our money, sold the aircraft, then leased them back, whilst the death spiral continues.

Was it not the ANC that destroyed the SAA and other SOEs with their great transformative ideas?

Heck it went so well we must continue down this path.
 
Two videos of China's future,



I haven't watch the first video in full, but the second video does contain a bit of Western bias, and for Agenda 2063. The AU master plan for transforming Africa.

Agenda 2063 is a master plan it is known as master plan, did everyone hear Ramaphosa refer to reforms as master plans in his SONA ;)

You see, it can provide a lot of jobs, but is specifically for skilled people. Skilled people are for the future, not for the current. The promises of jobs creation, when and if when, is for a new generation. Yes, there will be jobs for the unskilled and 'disadvantaged' but the exchange rate movements on employment will be high and for the most part short-term.

What amazed me most last night was Ramaphosa highlighting that the private sector was the largest employer. I have never heard this coming from the ANC before, and it true the public sector is the biggest provider of employment opportunities, but it means feckall if the support of these sectors are made to be exclusive which it has by means of state mandate.
 
The only way forward I see at this point is small scale collectivization where the members actually own the land and are independent of the state both in terms of funding and legal power.

But for that to become a reality people would need to start giving up on the unsustainable dream of everyone having separate houses and separate vehicles and etc. Spacious compounds are a much better utilization of land than a ever increasing sprawl and private transport needs to be in part replaced with better public transport.

You don't need wakanda to fix anything.
 
wingnut771 said:
Wages aren't the problem. Cost of living is.
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But you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. As soon as the cost of living started to outstrip salary increases, that was the point of no return. There are other remedies that can be taken like pricing controls on rentals, the purchase price of houses, the cost of staple foods and the like, but we'll have people on the other side of the fence decrying the fact that the government is dictating to businesses how much profit they're allowed to earn.

Increasing wages and mandating a liveable minimum wage that matches inflation increases is still a difficult sell to people who aren't going to benefit from it, but it's the path of least resistance compared to the government legislating itself towards more market control.

BeerIsNotGood... said:
Why not triple?

Why stop at double..

Because according to you the minimum wage has no impact on the economy :unsure:
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Look at you putting words in my mouth. Hyperbole isn't going to help your point at all.

vigras rojara said:
Yes but it has to be paid for. Seems paying the workers a pittance is still more popular, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Farmers that I know aren't always looking at more mechanisation, because that comes with higher associated costs of repair and maintenance, especially when they can't do their own repairs on-site.

The popular idea, at least from what I've seen, is just to get the workers who can't afford to leave to work harder. Or hire more workers who are willing to work for lower wages. There's no shortage of desperate people who will do just about anything to make enough money to support themselves.

Vrotappel said:
Yet you want to add another burden to them.
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I don't deny that it isn't a burden.

I'm still waiting for evidence that increasing the minimum wage is going to make multiple businesses fold. The DA says the same thing, but several studies have shown that minimum wage increases do not reduce employment.

When does a minimum wage become too high? : Planet Money : NPR

The Fed Bank of New York: raising the minimum wage doesn't kill jobs (businessinsider.com)

So then, what does a doubling of our pathetic excuse of a minimum wage do?

rambo919 said:
I am somewhat amazed how someone so obviously intelligent can say that minimum wage increases cannot possibly lead to small businesses folding.

It's not the only thing obviously, there is also the mountain of complience costs that together with wages easily makes up half to three quarters of most small business expenses.
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Studies have shown that increases don't affect employment rates. At what point does it affect employment rates? I dunno. No-one else seems to know either.

But hey, surviving on R174 a day at the current national rate doesn't seem like it's doable especially with everything else under the sun increasing. Doubling that would provide economic relief to millions across the country who work for R21.69 an hour.
 
CataclysmZA said:
Studies have shown that increases don't affect employment rates. At what point does it affect employment rates? I dunno. No-one else seems to know either.
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Studies have shown that studies don't tell the truth.

Don't look at useless studies, speak to actual employers and get a sense of how their minds work. Minimum wage goes up and the number of workers employed goes down without fail especially if the business is already suffering.... and almost no business is not currently suffering.

CataclysmZA said:
But hey, surviving on R174 a day at the current national rate doesn't seem like it's doable especially with everything else under the sun increasing. Doubling that would provide economic relief to millions across the country who work for R21.69 an hour.
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Doubling the wage is easy, they did that in the soviet union..... of course every time they did that the cost of living also went up and eventually passed the wage increased by.
 
rambo919 said:
Studies have shown that studies don't tell the truth.

Don't look at useless studies, speak to actual employers and get a sense of how their minds work. Minimum wage goes up and the number of workers employed goes down without fail especially if the business is already suffering.... and almost no business is not currently suffering.


Doubling the wage is easy, they did that in the soviet union..... of course every time they did that the cost of living also went up and eventually passed the wage increased by.
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Hoo boy.

Alright, I'm not engaging with you further.
 
CataclysmZA said:
I don't deny that it isn't a burden.

I'm still waiting for evidence that increasing the minimum wage is going to make multiple businesses fold. The DA says the same thing, but several studies have shown that minimum wage increases do not reduce employment.
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It's common sense in a country such as SA. In any event the proof is all around you every day businesses folding everywhere.

Why not kill of the last of them? We think we are clever.
 
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