South Africa's shocking mathematics performance

This.

I know to stay far away from programming as I lack the capacity in this nature to be a good one who contributes beneficially to others instead of being a framework hack and slasher rife with Swiss Cheese security holes. Put in context with the lower barrier of entry for these types of work and how many people take it up purely for financial focused ventures alone, it perfectly explains the state we have with many front-ends and infrastructure woes we experience, goverment-related things especially.
Bad front-ends are a symptom of potentially two things. One is that for a long time they were treated, by business and engineers, as the easy part that you slap on at the end. Two, the fundamental failure of those producing it to talk to their users, listen to them and understand their needs (not their wants). Absolutely no mathematics, experience with or understanding of, is involved or needed. In fact all those mathematics hotshots over and over proved themselves incapable of managing to do this right.

There's also the fact that graphical interfaces are fundamentally complicated. Usually in ways that make the back-end seem simple in comparison. And in my experience the more user friendly the interface gets the more complex the code to create it becomes. Often to a staggering degree. Mathematics isn't going to help.
 
In point of fact, we shouldn't bother teaching students how to learn either.
Almost nobody does, or ever has. Been a fundamental defect in education for as long as education has existed. It actually parallels the silly concept of expecting logic, reasoning and problem solving to miraculously get learned by teaching mathematics. Clearly it doesn't even impart these very well as most people cling to this nonsense instead of the obvious tack of teaching the skills themselves. And without the blinkered reliance on one subject.

I suppose when all you have is mathematics you think it's the solution to all problems.

It's difficult and boring. Why instill the skill when we can just.......
You didn't want to instil any skills. You wanted to teach a subject and hope that by magic certain skills would get learned.
 
es. And without the blinkered reliance on one subject.
Something tells me your education needs a revisit

This has nothing to do with "blinkered reliance" and everything to do with equipping future generations with the building blocks necessary to produce high-functioning adults, advancing the species.

Claiming it's too hard is no more a solution than claiming it's a one-size-fits-all miracle cure.

It's not about the subject. It's about the mind.
 
I disagree. You can't just chuck it out because it's too difficult. At least on the old system of lower, standard and higher grade there was some attempt to teach actual maths at different levels. Maths literacy is a joke, and does not achieve anything like actual maths literacy IMHO.

And the kids still passed on SG.

Which means it works and they can at least find the derivative of a polynomial (And understand it's practicality), do trig, and convert a problem involving quantities into a solvable formula. SG Maths is rocket science compared to math literacy.
 
You are correct.

In point of fact, we shouldn't bother teaching students how to learn either. It's difficult and boring. Why instill the skill when we can just.......

Look, I'm not sure what your solution may be but it sounds fun.

I don't get what your point is.

He's right - logic and rational thinking are used in mathematics, but not only mathematics.

I don't think high school mathematics is setup in such a way as to teach logic and rational thinking. Honestly, its a factory environment where they aim to produce students who know enough mathematics to pass mathematics. They don't really aim to get you thinking about the more abstract stuff or how it could apply to other things.
 
What is really behind this desire to force everyone to study mathematics right through school? Do people actually believe all that claptrap about logic and problem solving? Or is it some sort of elitist urge to force it on those who are destined to fail it no matter what and would never use it anyway?

If you can't figure out how to teach problem solving without resorting to mathematics then the issue is you. Same goes for logic.

I disagree. You can't just chuck it out because it's too difficult. At least on the old system of lower, standard and higher grade there was some attempt to teach actual maths at different levels. Maths literacy is a joke, and does not achieve anything like actual maths literacy IMHO.
Nothing whatever to do with chucking anything because it is too difficult. The education system can be pig-headed or it can support people's strengths. There is absolutely no value whatsoever in forcing someone who has no ability in mathematics to slog through it for years. Essentially wasting their time for some ideological nonsense instead of focusing on working on where their strengths lie. This pointless worship of mathematics serves no useful purpose.

And why support a lower grade tier, but moan about mathematics literacy?
 
everything to do with equipping future generations with the building blocks necessary to produce high-functioning adults, advancing the species.
Not your goal, since you want them to learn mathematics. You have no interest in the building blocks really.

Claiming it's too hard is no more a solution than claiming it's a one-size-fits-all miracle cure.
Someone claimed it was too hard?

I realise for someone like you who is an advanced expert in all subjects, plays all musical instruments and is a master in all crafts it can be difficult to comprehend that normal people have individual strengths.

It's not about the subject. It's about the mind.
Not according to you. You insist on mathematics.
 
If you're doing the research and building the tools. Using the tools however does not require much more than very basic knowledge. I know the mathematics used for graphics. But I've never needed to write a library for it, so I've never needed to use it. I know Fourier transforms. But I only care about the output, so I've never had the need to do the calculations myself.

No way. If you're doing ML and you can't explain why you're using a specific ML model, you shouldn't be doing ML. Any organization that allows for a ML model to be run in production, managing anything remotely important, without the implementer understanding the fundamentals of what's going on, is being irresponsible.
Robotics without math isn't robotics, it's playing around. It's like an engineer saying he doesn't need to understand the maths behind his bridge design's load calculations.
 
its a factory environment where they aim to produce students who know enough mathematics to pass mathematics.
That would be the failure, yes.

The application of established rule sets and the ability to problem solve should be the minimum outcome.

Instilling a love of puzzles and creative engagement with challenges is a bonus.

Sidestepping it helps nobody.
 
We need to look no further than the country's finances to realise how pathetic we some they are in maths. The systematic destruction and butchering of the subject will perpetuate and accelerate this.

:(
 
That would be the failure, yes.

The application of established rule sets and the ability to problem solve should be the minimum outcome.

Instilling a love of puzzles and creative engagement with challenges is a bonus.

Sidestepping it helps nobody.

I never did puzzles during mathematics. I don't think anyone I know did.

Mathematics does not and cannot teach people to enjoy creative problem solving. I don't think that can be taught, actually.
 
Without maths you can't have a 2nd industrial revolution, forget a 4th!
So how much mathematics did the average person know in the late 1800s, early 1900s? Since knowing mathematics and studying it for 12 years is critical I would assume everyone knew a lot.
 
What is really behind this desire to force everyone to study mathematics right through school? Do people actually believe all that claptrap about logic and problem solving?

Of course. When those problems are quantifiable.

Or is it some sort of elitist urge to force it on those who are destined to fail it no matter what and would never use it anyway?

Except kids still passed standard grade mathematics. They just had to study.

A shortage of engineers is one of the biggest challenges the world is facing today. In no properly optimised design will mathematics ever be excluded.

If you can't figure out how to teach problem solving without resorting to mathematics then the issue is you. Same goes for logic.

Lol So now valuing mathematics in its application is somehow a weakness. :ROFL:

It’s hilarious how you’re trying to devalue maths to people from across the country by sitting in front of millions of super-efficient transistors.

Nothing whatever to do with chucking anything because it is too difficult. The education system can be pig-headed or it can support people's strengths. There is absolutely no value whatsoever in forcing someone who has no ability in mathematics to slog through it for years. Essentially wasting their time for some ideological nonsense instead of focusing on working on where their strengths lie. This pointless worship of mathematics serves no useful purpose.

And why support a lower grade tier, but moan about mathematics literacy?

The lower grade tier was standard grade btw. I think the only concept they skipped is absolute values and it was easy as hell for students doing a bridging course in University. The exams are easier meaning they don’t try to pin SG Math kids into a corner, but it will still ask to resolve trig problems, algebraic problems, derivatives, word problems, geometry, and analytical geometry. a Undergrad will have these concepts smashed together in the form of calculus and you learn quick about various methods to shove away sole analytic application and implement these skills in design.

It’s not about writing some MVC app for a financial company. It’s about what your abilities are. And you can’t deny that with a good mathematical background the possibilities of what you’re capable of creating increases vastly beyond a person with no mathematical skills.
 
Bad front-ends are a symptom of potentially two things. One is that for a long time they were treated, by business and engineers, as the easy part that you slap on at the end. Two, the fundamental failure of those producing it to talk to their users, listen to them and understand their needs (not their wants). Absolutely no mathematics, experience with or understanding of, is involved or needed. In fact all those mathematics hotshots over and over proved themselves incapable of managing to do this right.

There's also the fact that graphical interfaces are fundamentally complicated. Usually in ways that make the back-end seem simple in comparison. And in my experience the more user friendly the interface gets the more complex the code to create it becomes. Often to a staggering degree. Mathematics isn't going to help.
The human interface is by far the more complex component. And that is not a new problem at all.

and BTW, "language" is just as difficult as mathematics, because if you bother to really understand any language you will quickly find out how much of it depends on a really good grounding in maths.
 
My experience is exactly the opposite. The business software jobs that required no mathematics paid the best. The jobs that needed mathematics and engineering were usually worse working environments and they paid less. The products were usually much more interesting though.
It sounds as though you have had very little exposure to an entire sector of software development. This is not entirely uncommon in South Africa.
 
If you're doing the research and building the tools. Using the tools however does not require much more than very basic knowledge. I know the mathematics used for graphics. But I've never needed to write a library for it, so I've never needed to use it. I know Fourier transforms. But I only care about the output, so I've never had the need to do the calculations myself.
You could never be competent graphics developer if you didn't understand things like lighting models or 3D geometry. Similarly, even understanding what time and frequency domains are, orthogonal bases, implications of using sin/cos waves as bases, etc., requires fairly advanced maths. Many people are surprised to find out that it exists for generic inner product spaces and not just function spaces.

Applied mathematics is, well, applied, so it is not pure and certainly not abstract.
Applied maths is very much built on pure maths - I do agree, not the pure maths where you move into things like analysis/topology, etc., but certainly the first few years of pure maths (calculus, basic algebra, linear algebra, etc.) in order to move on to advanced calculus, DEs/PDEs, modelling, convex optimization, etc.

Software engineering is hugely complex. Bad software happens everywhere and a lot of the time it is driven by financial imperatives rather than any deficiency in the ability of the people making the code.
Agreed, but beyond a certain level of technical complexity, it is exactly driven by the people writing the code.

Avoiding as many conceptual errors as possible will require strong language skills. Mathematics is entirely irrelevant. Mathematics may use logic, but it is certainly required neither to learn nor to use logic. Mathematics only comes into it if the product being developed involves mathematics.
Yes, and no. I do agree that the idea that understanding the difference between and abelian and a non-abelian groups, isn't going to somehow allow someone to build a cleaner class hierarchy. Working through things like performance analysis (tails, fat tailed distributions, understanding how the performance distribution of a chain of sequential events, where you know the individual event distributions, would generate a new distribution, and how the overall distribution would differ from expectation if they're not independent on each other, etc.), would be an example of how someone with more advanced maths would think about understanding something like just the performance of a system. If someone is simply timing things end to end, and just reporting the mean or median, as people tend to do, you're just never going to resolve the more complex problems as efficiently.

Point being that mathematics frequently doesn't show up, not because it's not useful, but because the people doing the work don't have the background for it. In some case it slows down development, and in some cases it can outright prevent the building of tractable solution without changing the problem.
 
What is really behind this desire to force everyone to study mathematics right through school? Do people actually believe all that claptrap about logic and problem solving? Or is it some sort of elitist urge to force it on those who are destined to fail it no matter what and would never use it anyway?
As one of the bigger proponents of studying more maths here, I do want to make it clear that my perspective is that it can be invaluable if you're good at it. There is, however, certainly a large class of people who can't grasp the rigour and formality of the subject, yet can understand fundamental logic intuitively. If someone cannot grasp the subject, there is never a point in forcing them to do it. There are, however, also a lot people who won't reach their full potential without the work and practice of a using formalized framework, such as mathematics - sometimes this full potential is just the basic logic that others may have intuitively, and sometimes it may extend to advanced STEM capabilities.
 
I have worked as a computer programmer for over 36 years - all in commercial environments - municipal, retail and financial - and I have never needed to use any maths beyond the simple operations (+-*/). Sometimes powers and roots for finance. I believe the NEED for pure maths is highly over-rated. The vast majority of careers (say95%) would never need anything beyond what Maths Literacy teaches. It is true that mathematically inclined people are often capable programmers - but that doesn't prove anything.
Graphics programming would disagree :crying:
 
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