State capture inquiry begins

[TheChamp]

I am in the view that the President must remain mandated to submitting an implementation plan. I don’t support another commission being established, but clearly, there is uncertainty amongst the parties, so be it. The question is who elects the commission, and how will the commission be made up? Ramaphosa is the executive, his implementation plan could be supplementary.

In reality, it is the NPA who needs to have an action plan, and now they need (?) to wait on an ethics committee? They should proceed, and the state and its party representatives would need to act accordingly. The last thing I want to see is a collision with state interests.

Everything which state or remotely state related is a delay.

To be fair I don't think the NPA said anything about waiting for anyone, as far as I am concerned they are busy doing their job regardless of what parliament and government is doing.

I think for parliament it should be way more than ethics, because we know they are not going to find anything there, it should mostly be about coming out with ways and ultimately laws that should prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

Problem is our parliamentarians are still at the politicking stages, I would expect by now individual parties to be publishing their plans an suggestions for the nation to peruse and discuss, at least that would show some seriousness, but for now it just look like they are looking forward to their parliament games and nothing else.

 

[Agent67]

The part about the ANC being excluded from state capture committees?

Since the ANC as a party is implicated in Zondo? And it's mostly their officials that are implicated?

Wouldn't make sense to give the accused state capturers the power to decide their own punishments and to decide how to prevent themselves from committing such actions again? Since we all know how that would turn out...

 

[TheChamp]

Since the ANC as a party is implicated in Zondo? And it's mostly their officials that are implicated?

Wouldn't make sense to give the accused state capturers the power to decide their own punishments and to decide how to prevent themselves from committing such actions again? Since we all know how that would turn out...

The ANC as a party will not be involved in parliamentary proceedings, the MPs of the National Assembly would be. The National Assembly, means exactly that, the National Assembly, you are going to run into plenty contradictions if you start looking at things from a party perspective.

There's a good reason they call each other Honorable Member and not ANC, EFF, DA etc member. If the opposition parties have lost confidence in parliament members who belong to the ANC it means they have no confidence in Parliament, then they need to stop whatever they are doing and dissolve parliament.

Wanting to invent new laws and and a different democracy now sounds more like politicking and nothing else to me, parliament must simply get on with the business and stop fooling around.

 

[Agent67]

The ANC as a party will not be involved in parliamentary proceedings, the MPs of the National Assembly would be.

MPs that are still part of the party involved in State Capture...

If the opposition parties have lost confidence in parliament members who belong to the ANC it means they have no confidence in Parliament, then they need to stop whatever they are doing and dissolve parliament.

Snap election then? Would be in their favour probably?

Wanting to invent new laws and and a different democracy now sounds more like politicking and nothing else to me, parliament must simply get on with the business and stop fooling around.

If we can improve and strengthen our democracy and create safeguards to prevent state capture from ever happening again while holding the complicit to account, why not?

 

[TheChamp]

MPs that are still part of the party involved in State Capture...

Snap election then? Would be in their favour probably?

If we can improve and strengthen our democracy and create safeguards to prevent state capture from ever happening again while holding the complicit to account, why not?

You are probably not willing to think more deeply about it, but a quick question, suppose people had to be arrested for their roles in the state capture, how is the arrest of the ANC going to look like?

How are they going to arrest and charge party and ultimately convict it and throw it in jail?

 

[Agent67]

But a quick question, suppose people had to be arrested for their roles in the state capture, how is the arrest of the ANC going to look like?

Probably by mass arresting incriminated leaders/MPs/members (former or current).

Not like the name and the logo FFS.

 

[TheChamp]

Probably by mass arresting incriminated leaders/MPs/members (former or current).

Not like the name and the logo FFS.

100%. When they say EOH or whatever company was involved in some dodgy dealings there is usually someone who is accountable at the end of the day, either the CEO or someone higher up, it doesn't have to be a mass of people, just one person doing something on behalf of the company.

People who are implicated in wrongdoing should not be included in the committees that are investigating that particular wrongdoing, simple as that. What the opposition is suggesting is that since Mnqasela is accused of something the DA must excuse itself from the legislature and only opposition parties be left to deal with Mnqasela.

If a mayor of some metro is implicated in something, their party must excuse themselves from council and the opposition parties be left to deal with him.

As you can see it is a half cooked, non starter of an idea, and it can only be because of one thing, the opposition parties are still looking and this from a politicking point of view and are yet to appreciate the seriousness of a task that lats before them as part of Parliament.

 

[3WA]

Yummy yummy

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[deesef]

Yummy yummy

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Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.....

 

[Fulcrum29]

Yummy yummy

WRAP | 77 people injured as two buses collide at University of Johannesburg entrance | News24

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I have to ask, will we ever have the will to prosecute the Guptas? They enriched many, and established the public dialogue in which the state is now invested and committed to.

Our Interpol ambassador stated at the time that we secured a extradition treaty to secure the Guptas. That treaty should now be actioned. Nonetheless, the red notice was executed and is alleged to have produced results, but to quote,

Chrispin Phiri, spokesperson for the department of justice, told News24’s Jeff Wicks: “There is no confirmation.”

All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption. Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?

At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.

EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?

 

[3WA]

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.....

I have to ask, will we ever have the will to prosecute the Guptas? They enriched many, and established the public dialogue in which the state is now invested and committed to.

Our Interpol ambassador stated at the time that we secured a extradition treaty to secure the Guptas. That treaty should now be actioned. Nonetheless, the red notice was executed and is alleged to have produced results, but to quote,



All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption. Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?

At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.

EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?

They surely have the resources to do Zuma's Stalingrad ten times over. But it is nice that they are being harassed instead of living freely.

 

[Fulcrum29]

They surely have the resources to do Zuma's Stalingrad ten times over. But it is nice that they are being harassed instead of living freely.

Yes, but 12 months and the UAE only discovered their whereabouts now? The conspiracy theorist in me says that someone wants the public attention elsewhere. The Guptas still need to be brought here, and they still need to be prosecuted, and that would not only require the NPA's and the courts’ will to do so, but also the state's will, and you can’t hold on to them, their prosecution would have to be expedited in good order.

Who knows, perhaps the Guptas were only caught now, which question whether this arrest may have also caught us by surprise?

Only time will provide the answers, but holding on too long to them without the will to prosecute may see them walk, and it doesn’t necessarily require a Stalingrad, it is the same ploy by Zuma that Thales is soon to exploit.

Addressing state capture and corruption is a battle against time, where we seemingly have no urgency.

I hope this arrest is true, and that the Guptas will be extradited, some Zuma's won't be happy since they have business interests with the Guptas in the UAE. Whichever way this will go, it will be spectacular indeed, nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[TheChamp]

Yummy yummy

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Oh boy!

 

[Agent67]

All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption.

Should help him out yeah. I guess we now feel how the Americans felt after they capped Bin Laden. ****ing ecstatic.

Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?

Dunno, but RET and uBaba won't be ****ing happy.

At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.

Yup.

EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?

Rajesh and Atul Gupta have been arrested in Dubai, more than four months after Interpol issued a red notice for them in connection with fraud and money laundering charges.

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Only four. Seems like UAE played ball with Interpol.

 

[aleksandar]

Yes, but 12 months and the UAE only discovered their whereabouts now? The conspiracy theorist in me says that someone wants the public attention elsewhere. The Guptas still need to be brought here, and they still need to be prosecuted, and that would not only require the NPA's and the courts’ will to do so, but also the state's will, and you can’t hold on to them, their prosecution would have to be expedited in good order.

Absolutely agree, we need distraction from $4 million.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Only four. Seems like UAE played ball with Interpol.

The original red notices were obtained in July last year, but then at some point in time, the Commission that controls Interpol's Files said that the notices were still under consideration. That seems dodgy since I remember the notices being published. That Commission, BTW, is an independent and impartial body which needs to ensure that all personal data processed by Interpol complies with the applicable rules, so somewhere, they decided that the notice required consideration. I am only saying that it seems dodgy, but there could have been an issue with the request, maybe some inaccuracies which needed to be attended to.

The latest red notice was approved in February.

 

[Agent67]

Absolutely agree, we need distraction from $4 million.

We'll deal with that kak later. For now, we deal with Atul and Rajesh.

 

[TheChamp]

Absolutely agree, we need distraction from $4 million.

Or maybe the $4million is the distraction.

 

[Fulcrum29]

I am looking into this, the extradition treaty,

DEVELOPING | Gupta brothers held at undisclosed police station in Dubai | News24

Rajesh and Atul Gupta have been arrested in Dubai in connection with fraud and money laundering charges. Follow News24 for the latest breaking news, analysis and commentary on this unfolding story.

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Last year, the United Arab Emirates' (UAE) ambassador to South Africa said an agreement between South Africa and that country on mutual legal assistance in criminal matters and extradition was signed in 2018.

The statement was issued just days after the National Prosecuting Authority's Investigating Directorate said it asked Interpol to circulate an international arrest warrant to have the Guptas deported to South Africa to stand trial for fraud and money laundering.

The ID issued arrest warrants for Gupta brothers, Atul and Rajesh, and their wives, Chetali and Arti, as well as a number of business associates.

Signed in 2018, that is what News24 reports, and we know that the arrest is realised,

JUST IN | The Ministry of Justice and Correctional Services confirms that it has received information from law enforcement authorities in the United Arab Emirates that fugitives of justice, namely, Rajesh and Atul Gupta have been arrested.

Discussions between various law enforcement agencies in the UAE and South Africa on the way forward are ongoing. The South African government will continue to co-operate with the UAE.

though the piece is a bit odd since it is the UAE who would need to continue its cooperation with us, in the case we don't cooperate then there was never a will to execute. Now that the arrests are made, it is all on the extradition treaty... to quote a old Reuters article,

South Africa to push UAE on failure to ratify extradition treaty

A South African delegation will meet officials in the United Arab Emirates to discuss why the country has not ratified an extradition treaty, South Africa said on Monday, as it tries to investigate a case of alleged influence-peddling.

www.reuters.com

South Africa to push UAE on failure to ratify extradition treaty​

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - A South African delegation will meet officials in the United Arab Emirates to discuss why the country has not ratified an extradition treaty, South Africa said on Monday, as it tries to investigate a case of alleged influence-peddling.

The treaty, ratified by South Africa in November 2018, could help the country extradite three Indian-born brothers - Atul, Ajay and Rajesh Gupta - who are at the centre of a corruption scandal that contributed to the downfall of former president Jacob Zuma.

While at a news conference on a sentence remission targeting thousands of prisoners to help with overcrowding, also announced on Monday, Justice Minister Ronald Lamola responded to local media reports the delegation would try to secure the Gupta’s extradition while in the UAE for an anti-corruption conference.

“It’s not like we are going to Dubai with a suitcase to fetch the Guptas,” he told reporters, adding the engagements would be around the non-ratification of the treaty and that at this stage South Africa expects the UAE will cooperate.

“We don’t know (why the treaty hasn’t been ratified). That’s what we will need to establish in these meetings... why, and if there is a problem, how can we solve it.”

so is it in order now. Even without the treaty the UAE could still cooperate, and even with a treaty the UAE could choose not to cooperate, it is not like we can sanction them, however, in the case this extradition is becoming a bungled mess I would start to question this what is happening now because it would be VERY convenient in a time accusations are running high.

I can only hope that all is sound. Just mentioning it should some issues arise. Prosecuting the Guptas would make me very happy knowing that there is progress in this country.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Or maybe the $4million is the distraction.

For that to be the case, the Zuptas would have already known that the arrest was imminent. Not too long ago clarity on this arrest was still sought by our state.