Suarez and Evra Thread.

Paragraph 382 "We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened."

PROBABLY!?!? That's that sorted then.

Not even a "beyond all reasonable doubt."

Basically it says Suarez is a liar the decision is reached on the balance of probability.
 
What actually happened? – The goalmouth
- Evra said that he is not exactly fluent in Spanish but that he can easily converse in Spanish. Evra told us that he began the conversation by saying “Concha de tu hermana”. Evra’s evidence was that this is a phrase used in Spanish like when you say “****ing hell” in English.

- Evra claims that when he asked “Why did you kick me?”, Suarez replied “Porque tu eres negro”. Evra said that at the time Suarez made that comment, he (Evra) understood it to mean “Because you are a ******”. He now says that he believes the words used by Mr Suarez mean “Because you are black”.

- Suarez said that he replied to Mr Evra’s question “Why did you kick me?” by saying “que habia sido una falta normal”, meaning “it was just a normal foul”. He said he shrugged his shoulders and put his arms out in a gesture to say that there was nothing serious about it. At this point on the video footage, Mr Suarez’s face is obscured, but he does appear to shrug his shoulders.

- Evra said that he followed up Suarez’s reply “Because you are black” by saying “Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada”, which means “Say it to me again, I’m going to punch you”. Suarez replied by saying “No hablo con los negros”. Evra said that, at the time, he understood this to mean “I don’t speak to ******s”, although he now says it means “I don’t speak to blacks”.

- Suarez’s evidence was that Evra replied to the comment “it was just a normal foul” by saying “Ok, you kicked me, I’m going to kick you”. Suarez said in his witness statement that his response was “Le dije que se callara e hice un gesto breve con mi mano izquierda parecido a la mocion de un “pato cuando hace cuac” para indicarle que hablaba mucho y deberia callarse”, which was translated as “I told him to shut up and made a brief gesture with my left hand like a “quacking” motion as if to say he was talking too much and should be quiet”.

- Evra said that after Suarez said “I don’t speak to blacks”, he (Evra) said “Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada”, which means “Okay, now I think I’m going to punch you”. To this he says that Suarez replied “Dale, negro…negro…negro”. At the time, Evra understood this to mean “Okay, ******, ******, ******”. He now says it means “Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie”. The expert witnesses stated that the phrase “Dale, negro” can be
understood as “Bring it on, blackie” or “do it, blackie” or “go ahead, blackie”. Evra said that as Suarez was speaking he reached out to touch Evra’s arm, gesturing at his skin. Evra said that Suarez was drawing attention to the colour of Evra’s skin. This gesture is clearly shown on the video footage, just as Kuyt comes
between them. It seemed to us that Suarez reached out and pinched Evra’s left forearm. In cross-examination, Evra said that at the time he did not realise that Suarez had pinched his arm. He was more focussed on his lips and what he was saying.

- Suarez said that at no point did he use the word “negro” during the exchange with Evra in the goalmouth.

- Evra’s evidence is that up to this point Mr Suarez had used the word “negro” or “negros” five times in the goalmouth: “Because you are black”, “I don’t speak to blacks” and “Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie”.

- When the referee blew his whistle to stop play, Evra and Suarez were standing close to each other, having just run and challenged for the corner. The referee called them over to him. Suarez said something to Evra, then started to walk away. There is a clear reaction by Evra to Suarez’s comment. This is apparent in two
ways. First, there is a facial reaction by Evra, akin to a look of surprise. Secondly, whilst looking at the referee, Evra points to Suarez. Evra walks towards the referee and says something while pointing back at Suarez. Evra’s evidence was that while he was walking towards the referee he said “ref, ref, he
just called me a ****ing black”. He said that he did not know whether the referee heard his comment. The referee said something like “Calm down, Patrice, the game has been brilliant, stop the pushing between you and Suarez, the game is going well.”

- Suarez’s evidence was that simultaneously with the blowing of the whistle, Evra said to him “Don’t touch me, South American”. Suarez took this to be a reference to his touching Evra’s arm on the goal-line a few moments earlier. Suarez said that he turned to Evra and said “Por que, negro?”. He said that he used the word “negro” at this point in the way that he did when he was growing up in Uruguay, that is as a friendly
form of address to people seen as black or brown-skinned or even just black-haired. He said that he used it in the same way that he did when he spoke to Glen Johnson, the black Liverpool player. He said in no way was the use of the word “negro” intended to be offensive or to be racially offensive. It was intended as an attempt at conciliation.

- Marriner, the referee, was shown the footage of this incident at the hearing. Marriner said that he could not recall what was being said to him. He explained that he wanted to take control of the situation, that the game had gone “swimmingly” up until that point with no confrontation between any players, and he just wanted to get his point across to the players. He said that he told the players to get on with it, and calm down. That is why he took charge of the situation and really did not take on board what was being said to him. We found Mr Marriner’s account to be plausible and credible. The fact that Mr Marriner did not hear what Mr Evra said is not inconsistent with Mr Evra’s evidence.
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/th...ss&utm_campaign=the-suarez-report-broken-down
 
What actually happened? – Evra is booked

- As the players moved upfield, there was an exchange between Evra and Kuyt. The referee called Evra over and gave him a yellow card. Giggs spoke to the referee about the caution and then spoke to Evra.

- Evra described the booking in the following way. Kuyt told him to stop diving so Evra pushed him away. The referee called Evra over to book him. Evra asked the referee why he was booking him and the referee said it was because he had pushed Kuyt. When he was being booked, Mr Evra told the referee again that he had been called black. Evra added that after booking him, the referee spoke to Ryan Giggs. Giggs then asked Evra what was wrong and Evra told him that he had been called black. Giggs told Evra to calm down and not get sent off.

- Giggs gave evidence before us. He said that he was reasonably close to the referee and after he had shown Evra the yellow card, Giggs approached the referee and asked him why he had booked Evra. The referee said to Giggs “just calm Patrice down”. It was obvious to Giggs from looking at Evra that he was upset. Giggs said to Evra “what’s happened?”. Evra replied “he called me black”. Giggs said to Evra “did the ref hear it?”, to which Mr Evra replied “I don’t think so”. Giggs then told Evra to calm down and not get himself sent off.

- Kuyt gave a slightly different version from Marriner, Evra and Giggs. He said that after the goal kick he was close to Evra and said “Come on, let’s move on, let’s keep going with the game” and touched Evra just on the arm. According to Kuyt, Evra reacted aggressively and smashed his arm away and at that point, the referee
having seen the incident, called Evra to him and booked him. Kuyt said he was “absolutely certain” that he heard Evra say that the referee was only booking him because he was black.

- We found the evidence of Marriner on this point to be credible and plausible. He recalled Evra telling him that he was being called black. This is consistent with Evra’s evidence of what he told Marriner at that time, and also with Giggs’ evidence of what Evra said to him shortly afterwards. In light of this, we reject Kuyt’s evidence that Evra said that the referee was only booking him because he was black. It would make no sense in the circumstances for Evra to accuse the referee of only booking him because he was black. Not only had Evra pushed Kuyt away, which he is likely to have realised had led to his booking, but his concern at that stage was that he had been called black (bearing in mind that, at the very least, Suarez admits having called Evra “negro” by this stage of the game).

What actually happened? – After the final whistle
- As the players went into the dressing room at the end of the game, Evra was really angry and upset. Valencia said he could see it. He explained that Evra is not normally angry after games. Evra said that he was angry because Suarez had insulted him. “I cannot remember exactly the words Evra used but he said that Suarez had said that he wouldn’t speak to him because he was black. I think the words Evra used
were words similar to “Negro, no hablas conmigo”.”

- Hernandez: “Although I was stood with the medical staff, I could clearly hear Evra as he was speaking loudly. He said that during the game, Suarez said to him words similar to “No voy a platicar contigo porque eres negro”. I understood from what Evra said that Suarez had been racially abusive towards him and that he had told Evra that he would not speak to him because he was black.”

- Nani: “He said that Suarez had said that he wouldn’t talk to him because he was black. When he said this in English I think he used the word “******” but in Spanish/Portuguese he used the word “negro” or “preto”, I cannot remember exactly which. Evra was also angry that Suarez had not been booked for saying what he did. Evra said something like, “This is a joke. How is it possible that the referee does nothing when he knows what happened?” Evra said that he had told the referee what Suarez said to him.”

- Anderson: “I cannot remember all the exact words Evra used but he told us that Suarez had said to him on the pitch that he wouldn’t speak to Evra because he was black. I think he used words similar to “no hablo con negro”.”

- Valencia and Anderson told Mr Evra that he must tell the manager and go and see the referee because this was serious. When Sir Alex Ferguson and Evra left the dressing room to go and speak to the referee, Valencia and Anderson followed them. They wanted to support Evra but they were not allowed into the referee’s room, only Evra and Sir Alex Ferguson went in.

- Evra said that he told the referee that Suarez had called him a ******. According to Evra, the referee said to him “Oh, that is why you were talking about being called black”, referring back to what Evra had said to the referee on the pitch. Evra said “Yes.”
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/th...ss&utm_campaign=the-suarez-report-broken-down
 
The language experts
- The experts who were instructed are Professor Peter Wade and Dr James Scorer. Wade is a specialist in race and ethnicity in Latin America, with particular emphasis on black populations, genetics and sexuality; he has also worked on the ties between Colombian national identity, popular music and race. He learnt his Spanish mainly in Colombia, has been a fluent speaker for nearly 30 years, and has experience of Spanish usage mainly in Colombia, Mexico and Spain. James Scorer works in the Department of Spanish, Portuguese and Latin American Studies. His research focuses on Latin American cities, particularly urban politics and cultures in Buenos Aires, as well as on national and regional identities in Latin American cinema, including that of Uruguay. He learnt his Spanish predominantly in Buenos Aires, and has been a fluent speaker of Castellano for nearly 10 years.

- The word “negro” can have pejorative connotations, as it may be associated with low class status, ugliness, vulgar behaviour, noisiness, violence, dishonesty, sexual promiscuity etc. The word can be employed with the intent to offend and to offend in racial terms; often the word would be appended with further insult, as in the example “negro de mierda” [****ty black]. The word “negro” is by no means, however, always used offensively. The term can also be used as a friendly form of address to someone seen as somewhat brown-skinned or even just black-haired. It may be used affectionately between man and wife, or girlfriend/boyfriend, it may be used as a nickname in everyday speech, it may be used to identify in neutral and descriptive fashion someone of dark skin. Though these terms are often used between friends or relatives, they are not used exclusively so; thus, an individual might call out to a passer-by “ay, negro, querés jugar con nosotros?” [hey, blackie, do you want to play with us?]; in all cases, however, when the word is used in this way it implies a sense of rapport or the attempt to create such rapport; naturally, if the term were used with a sneer, then it might carry negative connotations.

- Evra stated that the goalmouth incident started when he addressed Suarez, beginning with the phrase “Concha de tu hermana”. According to the experts, the literal translation is “your sister’s ****” and it can be taken as a general swear word expressing anger, although the word “concha” is not as taboo as the English word “****”. It is thus equivalent to “****ing hell” or “**** me”.

- Assuming Suarez responded with “Porque tu eres negro”, this would be interpreted in Uruguay and other regions of Latin America as racially offensive. When the noun is used in the way described by Evra, it is not a friendly form of address, but is used in an insulting way: it is given as the rationale for an act of physical aggression (the foul), as if the person deserved such an attack since they are black.

- The sentence attributed to Suarez, “No hablo con los negros”, falls into the same category of racist usage. It assumes that the individual did not merit being talked to as he belongs to a whole category of people classed as black.

- If Suarez used the words “negro” and “negros” as described by Evra, this would be understood as offensive and offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally. The physical gesture of touching Mr Evra’s arm would also, in the context of the phrases used, be interpreted as racist.

- If Suarez used the word “negro” as described by Suarez, this would not be interpreted as either
offensive or offensive in racial terms in Uruguay.

- There are some black people in Uruguay and other areas of Latin America who object to the use of the word “negro” as a term of address, as they say it highlights skin colour when this should be irrelevant. This is the use of the word “negro” (ie as a term of address) which Suarez contended before us is acceptable, yet his view appears to be contentious with some in Uruguay and Latin America. Also, the use of the word “negro” can be seen as offensive or inoffensive in Uruguay and Latin America. It appears to depend, largely, on the context. It might be seen by some as inoffensive when used to address relatives, friends or passers-by. However, we note the experts’ comment that in all cases when the word is used in this way it implies a sense of rapport or the attempt to create such rapport; naturally, if the term were used with a sneer, then it might carry negative connotations. It is important to examine closely the context in which it is used, and the way in which it is used, in order to decide whether it is being used offensively and offensively in racial terms.

How to make a decision
This case is not simply about one person’s word against another. Whilst there were conflicting accounts of what happened which were presented to us by Evra and Suarez, there was other relevant evidence which we were able to take into account in reaching our decision. This other evidence included:
* video footage of the match
* the evidence of others as to what happened during or immediately after the match
* documentation in the form of the referee’s report which was based on conversations he had immediately after the match
* transcripts of interviews with the main protagonists and other witnesses conducted in the course of the FA’s investigation before witness statements were prepared for the purpose of this hearing
* the evidence given to us by other witnesses quite apart from Evra and Suarez, including expert witnesses on Spanish language.
We reached our decision on the basis of a consideration of the totality of the evidence attaching such weight as we considered appropriate to the different elements of it.

- It was accepted by both Mr Greaney (FA’s representative) and Mr McCormick (Suarez’s representative) in closing submissions that this is not simply a case of one person’s word against another.

- We found Mr Evra to be an impressive witness. He gave his evidence to us in a calm, composed and clear manner. Evra also demonstrated a measure of balance in his evidence and he was prepared to make a number of concessions before us. In giving his account of their exchanges in the goalmouth, Evra described how he started the conversation with the offensive phrase, “Concha de tu hermana”. He said this in his first interview with the FA on 20 October, and included it in his witness statement placed before us, even though it reflected badly on him.

- Suarez was not as impressive a witness as Evra. His answers were not always clear or directly addressed to the question. Whether this was due to language difficulties or evasiveness was not entirely clear and so, whenever we could, we gave Mr Suarez the benefit of the doubt. We were certainly more concerned by the substance of his evidence than by the manner in which he gave it.
There you go you can read the rest at that site
 
Great News! I am so glad that the scumbag Suarez is getting some karma Justice! :D

This made my day!
 
I still think that this will end up in court and that the FA will end up with egg on their face due to their own inconsistency (the FA, not the eggs).
 
I still think that this will end up in court and that the FA will end up with egg on their face due to their own inconsistency (the FA, not the eggs).

Well now they have set a massive precedent. Now they have to be consistent.

This whole saga isn't over by a long way. Also want to see what they do to one of their own (English) John Terry, since they actually have video evidence of him saying what he said...
 
Nothing will change in the new year or coming years..... as long as people are different colours,racism will still exist. FA is still trying to be politically correct ,unfortunately their judgement is not going to change peoples views ,opinions and stereotypical behaviour is sometimes sadly inherent.
 
Nothing will change in the new year or coming years..... as long as people are different colours,racism will still exist. FA is still trying to be politically correct ,unfortunately their judgement is not going to change peoples views ,opinions and stereotypical behaviour is sometimes sadly inherent.

Might not change their views, but apparently Suarez said in the investigation he won't use the word 'negro' on the pitch again.

Success? Maybe.
 
Is there anything stopping Suarez calling Evra a 'negro' in Mandarin or Russian ?


Is that not the core of the FA's problems.... ? DO they even know how to embrace the diverse cultures of players that grace the EPL ?
 
Is there anything stopping Suarez calling Evra a 'negro' in Mandarin or Russian ?

Why would he? In any case, if Evra doesn't understand those languages, he won't know, so can't take offence.

Is that not the core of the FA's problems.... ? DO they even know how to embrace the diverse cultures of players that grace the EPL ?

Considering the EPL is going on 20 years and this is the first time a foreigner has been banned for racism, maybe it isn't the FA's fault, is Saurez's.
 
Trying to ban a foreigner aint going to change much. The FA themselves need to look in mirrror... They are a bunch of hypocrites.

Can anybody still count the number of BLACK MANAGERS that are in a managerial role across all divisions in the FA ?

What is the FA doing about promoting the likes of the Barnes,Ince's of this world who are still considered failures in management coz they are Black ?


FA are shooting themselves in the foot... its pointless trying to hoodwink everybody into thinking that they actually give a feck about racism in Football. It exists and its ugly across Europe in general.
 
Hahahaha, you trying to make a point based on other, unrelated things. Maybe if Ince and Barnes were better at management they'd be able to promote themselves, don't you think? Saying they need the FA to promote them is condescending in a big way.

Suarez made a racial slur, stop blaming others.
 
Its related. Count the number of Black managers across 4 divisions in the the UK.

Yes, you might just need a few fingers....


Anybody remember Ron ex Utd manager ? Was he a racist only after leaving the mangerial reins of OT ?
 
Anybody remember Ron ex Utd manager ? Was he a racist only after leaving the mangerial reins of OT ?

Ron Atkinson. He was a dick.. It happened 18 years after he left OT though. Either way, I didn't see United players wearing his T-shirt.

By the way, if you're comparing the two, do you now think Suarez is a racist?
 
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