Taking everything from whites will not solve the problem: ANC

[Hemi300c]

Taking everything from whites will not solve the problem: ANC
Talk is cheap and your promises have proven to be just hot air. You ain't going to stop though are you.................

 

[konfab]

We need to do the following:

Education
For children and adults.
Exports
Make exports from South Africa as attractive as possible to the rest of the world.
This would include laxing/streamlining/simplifying customs and tax. It would also require SAPO to pull finger.
Economic Equity
Colour has nothing to do with this. Free rides do not work either. Lower the minimum wage (and/or subsidise wage/pay employees to hire more people).

So much to do in this country and so many idle hands. Does not compute.

Dude...
That is inhumane in this damn country. With rising costs of living and such.
I would rather focus on making the labour regulations much more flexible.
So basically, you can hire and fire someone as you please, but if you do hire them, pay them properly.

 

[Messugga]

Dude...
That is inhumane in this damn country. With rising costs of living and such.
I would rather focus on making the labour regulations much more flexible.
So basically, you can hire and fire someone as you please, but if you do hire them, pay them properly.

You know what's worse than getting a ****ty salary? Getting no salary. Implement a grant system, as current, that supplements income for workers receiving less than a certain threshold.

We desperately need more productivity in the country.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Again, the ANC does not want a well educated, logical thinking user base, cause that will expose their shortcommings and lies. They want people to think and vote emotionally, they want everyone to think the DA is racist [I actually saw JZ said yesterday that no ANC member has ever been racist]. and they want to attach apartheid on the front of their whip!

The country will never move forward, if skin colour is only thing we focus on. Racism/Skin colour/poverty/crime etc, all of this is SYMPTOMS of a failing government. if you have a cold, you don't just think wiping your nose will make you better ? no, a snotty nose is a symptom, the cause is a virus, address the virus, and the symptom goes away.

Sure, but the ANC didn't cause foundational problems that we haven't dealt with. They're exploiting it for political purposes, as I've acknowledged. The DA have realised this, which is why they've become more focused on this topic and are trying to change their messaging to address the shared experience of many millions of people.

And racism isn't a symptom of a failing government, that's nonsense.

I talked to my domestic workers and my gardeners, neither of the two groups even knew about Nkandla, never mind the corrupt weapons transactions, firing of Nene... They don' t hear or follow these stories as the middle and upper class does. So what motivatio is there for them to vote for another party?
It has been 25 years and they haven't received houses, they don't have better jobs, their children don't have better education. If they haven't changed their vote by this time, how long will it take? Every election comes with a bunch of promises from the ANC, which the masses seem to accept.

Your domestic and gardener doesn't represent all of black South Africa. Many millions have seen an increase in their quality of life and living standards after the ANC came to power.

And poor people don't generally care about things like Nkandla or the arms scandal intimately because they have much more immediate needs to be concerned about - food, housing, transport etc. Top level corruption like that are basically middle and upper class problems. This is true all over the world.

Naturally this falls on a larger spectrum of issues, that eventually comes full circle. We'd be able to afford better social programs, housing, education etc. if money wasn't spent on garbage policies or corruption.

They don't vote for other parties because they don't see the alternatives as viable, not because they're idiots that the ANC can control.

I absolutely agree the ANC needs to be hoofed out of office, but the political challenge there is to actually get people to believe that other parties will address the issues the majority feels are important.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

You know what's worse than getting a ****ty salary? Getting no salary. Implement a grant system, as current, that supplements income for workers receiving less than a certain threshold.

We desperately need more productivity in the country.

That's true, but what's even worse is being told in perpetuity that a schit salary is justified because it's better than no salary. Easy way to continue exploiting people.

 

[Bizkit87]

Sure, but the ANC didn't cause foundational problems that we haven't dealt with. They're exploiting it for political purposes, as I've acknowledged. The DA have realised this, which is why they've become more focused on this topic and are trying to change their messaging to address the shared experience of many millions of people.

And racism isn't a symptom of a failing government, that's nonsense.



Your domestic and gardener doesn't represent all of black South Africa. Many millions have seen an increase in their quality of life and living standards after the ANC came to power.

And poor people don't generally care about things like Nkandla or the arms scandal intimately because they have much more immediate needs to be concerned about - food, housing, transport etc. Top level corruption like that are basically middle and upper class problems. This is true all over the world.

Naturally this falls on a larger spectrum of issues, that eventually comes full circle. We'd be able to afford better social programs, housing, education etc. if money wasn't spent on garbage policies or corruption.

They don't vote for other parties because they don't see the alternatives as viable, not because they're idiots that the ANC can control.

I absolutely agree the ANC needs to be hoofed out of office, but the political challenge there is to actually get people to believe that other parties will address the issues the majority feels are important.

Racism might to be, but the racial hatred incited in our country [Kill the boer / Apartheid this, Apartheid that / White people must share / Whites have all the wealth etc - all things said by the government] causes this hatred to be out in the open and more and more toxic.

Face it, the government [power hungry people] will use whatever tool, whatever line they have to keep people divided. Even me and you now are not discussing the actual problems of the country, we are discussing what the government wants us to discuss... race ....

Even though we are aware of it, their plan is still working on us guy.

 

[grok]

Have ever heard of a thing called sarcasm?
That was meant as a joke.

But to your point yes, as you mention, white people are still the wealthy group in SA, and of course, the more you earn, the more tax you pay. Some ill-informed people might see this as an attack against whites, but there are plenty of previously disadvantaged people making a lot of money and (hopefully) paying their fair share of tax.

Interesting little '(hopefully)' you added there..

I'm well aware that I'll be called racist for this but this highlights (to me anyway) the general level of trust people have in blacks to do the right thing.

At the very least it means different standards for different skin colors, not exactly the non-racialism we were told we're striving towards.

 

[Messugga]

That's true, but what's even worse is being told in perpetuity that a schit salary is justified because it's better than no salary. Easy way to continue exploiting people.

Absolutely. But you don't have a gun being held against your head. If you're willing to work for a crap salary because it even moderately improves your life, then why should government stop you from doing so? We have a metric crapton of unskilled labour, twiddling their thumbs. Get them productive. Get them to help grow the pie, so that we all can share from it.

Exploitation is always a risk. Maybe limit this sort of thing to small companies only? Get new startups off the ground. Once they've grown enough to become profitable and stable, reduce or remove these sorts of allowances.
I think there are already similar things in place or being planned, in the form of tax breaks and whatnot, but you don't pay tax on zero profit anyway, so this doesn't benefit new startups. I'm hardly an expert on small business though, so maybe there are already other options available.

 

[AstroTurf]

Dude...
That is inhumane in this damn country. With rising costs of living and such.
I would rather focus on making the labour regulations much more flexible.
So basically, you can hire and fire someone as you please, but if you do hire them, pay them properly.

I never once said the bolded bit.
Rising costs of living and such? What do you think would happen to those if Education and Exports get priority, our workforce increases and unemployment goes under 10%?


Just on a side note.

I was in China and Hong Kong in 2011 and all the propaganda stuff on the telly about how to handle foreigners (smiling, hand shakes, explaining western culture and manners, what not to take insult to etc) as well as the programs explaining export policies and why they are good for everybody all stuck with me as something we in this country could really do with.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Sure, but the ANC didn't cause foundational problems that we haven't dealt with. They're exploiting it for political purposes, as I've acknowledged. The DA have realised this, which is why they've become more focused on this topic and are trying to change their messaging to address the shared experience of many millions of people.

And racism isn't a symptom of a failing government, that's nonsense.



Your domestic and gardener doesn't represent all of black South Africa. Many millions have seen an increase in their quality of life and living standards after the ANC came to power.

And poor people don't generally care about things like Nkandla or the arms scandal intimately because they have much more immediate needs to be concerned about - food, housing, transport etc. Top level corruption like that are basically middle and upper class problems. This is true all over the world.

Naturally this falls on a larger spectrum of issues, that eventually comes full circle. We'd be able to afford better social programs, housing, education etc. if money wasn't spent on garbage policies or corruption.

They don't vote for other parties because they don't see the alternatives as viable, not because they're idiots that the ANC can control.

I absolutely agree the ANC needs to be hoofed out of office, but the political challenge there is to actually get people to believe that other parties will address the issues the majority feels are important.

I agree, blacks are a lot better of now compared to 25 years ago, I don't think anyone can dispute that (they can and they have tried).

The problem is that they should care about Nkandla and and and... That is money wasted that could have been spend one these more immediate needs. I disagree about corruption being middle and upper class problems. You, as middle/upper class can afford to buy a car, private health, private schools, you can apply for loans, buy a house... The poor can't, they need the state to provide them with a house, proper education and health care, but if they keep on enriching themselves, there isn't any money left to look after the poor.

I don't believe the conspiracy theory that the ANC is purposefully (sounds like a weird David Ike type of theory) keeping the masses uneducated. But our schooling system is at rock bottom and a matric certificate mean nothing at this stage. It is a difficult problem they have to deal with, and I cannot see the DA, or who ever, correcting it in less than 25 years.

For all the bad in the ANC, they have done great things as well. But their time has come, they managed to get their people out from under apartheid to a better place. Now it is time for someone else to take them further.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Racism might to be, but the racial hatred incited in our country [Kill the boer / Apartheid this, Apartheid that / White people must share / Whites have all the wealth etc - all things said by the government] causes this hatred to be out in the open and more and more toxic.

Face it, the government [power hungry people] will use whatever tool, whatever line they have to keep people divided. Even me and you now are not discussing the actual problems of the country, we are discussing what the government wants us to discuss... race ....

Even though we are aware of it, their plan is still working on us guy.

You'll continue to be amazed that people don't go along with you, since you're dismissing something that a lot of South Africans feel is an "actual problem" that has to be addressed.

Absolutely. But you don't have a gun being held against your head. If you're willing to work for a crap salary because it even moderately improves your life, then why should government stop you from doing so? We have a metric crapton of unskilled labour, twiddling their thumbs. Get them productive. Get them to help grow the pie, so that we all can share from it.

Exploitation is always a risk. Maybe limit this sort of thing to small companies only? Get new startups off the ground. Once they've grown enough to become profitable and stable, reduce or remove these sorts of allowances.
I think there are already similar things in place or being planned, in the form of tax breaks and whatnot, but you don't pay tax on zero profit anyway, so this doesn't benefit new startups. I'm hardly an expert on small business though, so maybe there are already other options available.

Yeah, I agree that we need more mobility in our labour force. More and easier opportunities for people to get economically active etc. I'm just afraid of exploitation of the desperate and vulnerable. It's not highly skilled and qualified workers who have many job opportunities to choose from that get exploited, after all.

And the line on this always shifts. Hell, we only got weekends because labour unions fought tooth and nail for it, ditto for parental or family leave, lunch breaks, workplace safety, working hour limits etc. All this stuff can be argued away with the 'well nobody forced you' argument.

 

[Messugga]

You'll continue to be amazed that people don't go along with you, since you're dismissing something that a lot of South Africans feel is an "actual problem" that has to be addressed.



Yeah, I agree that we need more mobility in our labour force. More and easier opportunities for people to get economically active etc. I'm just afraid of exploitation of the desperate and vulnerable. It's not highly skilled and qualified workers who have many job opportunities to choose from that get exploited, after all.

And the line on this always shifts. Hell, we only got weekends because labour unions fought tooth and nail for it, ditto for parental or family leave, lunch breaks, workplace safety, working hour limits etc. All this stuff can be argued away with the 'well nobody forced you' argument.

Look at China. The only reason they're seeing anything close to the growth they are seeing, is because the people are sacrificing things like free time.
You need everyone in the country to produce more than they consume, on a nett basis, otherwise you have a recession. At the moment you have a whole bunch of people consuming and not producing anything. This needs to change at all costs.

 

[Bizkit87]

You'll continue to be amazed that people don't go along with you, since you're dismissing something that a lot of South Africans feel is an "actual problem" that has to be addressed.



Yeah, I agree that we need more mobility in our labour force. More and easier opportunities for people to get economically active etc. I'm just afraid of exploitation of the desperate and vulnerable. It's not highly skilled and qualified workers who have many job opportunities to choose from that get exploited, after all.

And the line on this always shifts. Hell, we only got weekends because labour unions fought tooth and nail for it, ditto for parental or family leave, lunch breaks, workplace safety, working hour limits etc. All this stuff can be argued away with the 'well nobody forced you' argument.

Ok, so lets step back and go with this:

1. Racism is a deep seated, unconditional problem in South Africa, and yes, Apartheid had everything to do with that.

So what do you propose should be done about this ? Should we continue to blame the NP and Whites for what happened there [even though the NP did not represent all of the whites in SA... remember 71% of whites voted for Apartheid to be abolished]

Should we continue to focus our dialog around the happenings of 1940 - 1994 ? Where will this get us ? What will this do? Would it help if i apologize to all black people for what our idiot leaders did before i was born ?

What would address this issue ? Discriminating against current day whites that hand nothing to do with Apartheid [BBBEEE / Sport Quotas / Kill the boer /] What will make this better ?

Once you address all these questions, eventually you'll realise that the answer is nothing, nothing can be done about the past, we can only change the now, the here, and the future.

But all our efforts are spend debating the past, getting angry at the past leaders, yet the people that can uplift the poor, that can build schools and hospitals and parks and create jobs, they are the ones stealing the funds, they are the one selling our riches to other nations, they are the ones building their castles of our money, yet all they have to do is refer to point #1 above, and it buys them more time to plunder. Do you understand this concept ?

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Look at China. The only reason they're seeing anything close to the growth they are seeing, is because the people are sacrificing things like free time.
You need everyone in the country to produce more than they consume, on a nett basis, otherwise you have a recession. At the moment you have a whole bunch of people consuming and not producing anything. This needs to change at all costs.

This is very true. I was in Beijing a couple of years ago and it looked like EVERYONE had a job. There were people cleaning the streets with a broken little broom. There are people at most intersections to help elderly cross the road. Although you can see these people probably only make like R10 a day, at least it is their R10 to spend as they like (they do get housing and some food from the government).
I am busy watching a 13-part documentary on WWII and at the start of it all, at the time of the great depression in USA, Germany did not go into recession because the Nazi government gave unemployed people work (to build military equipment with money and gold they stole during WWI, but lets not digress).
The ideal would be to get the unemployment down, but it is proofing to be difficult.

 

[Messugga]

This is very true. I was in Beijing a couple of years ago and it looked like EVERYONE had a job. There were people cleaning the streets with a broken little broom. There are people at most intersections to help elderly cross the road. Although you can see these people probably only make like R10 a day, at least it is their R10 to spend as they like (they do get housing and some food from the government).
I am busy watching a 13-part documentary on WWII and at the start of it all, at the time of the great depression in USA, Germany did not go into recession because the Nazi government gave unemployed people work (to build military equipment with money and gold they stole during WWI, but lets not digress).
The ideal would be to get the unemployment down, but it is proofing to be difficult.

Exactly. Hell, have more people work as human traffic lights. Pay them some money. Odds are they'll be more effective in the rain than what we currently have in Sandton and surrounds.
But no, you have the EFF and such advocating for "decent jobs" - literally a case of beggars being choosers - as if people are too good to do menial things to try and better their situation. Go work for a few bucks, learn a skill and if you feel you're getting ripped off, start your own business doing the same thing, whether it's carpentry or whatever else.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Interesting little '(hopefully)' you added there..

I'm well aware that I'll be called racist for this but this highlights (to me anyway) the general level of trust people have in blacks to do the right thing.

At the very least it means different standards for different skin colors, not exactly the non-racialism we were told we're striving towards.

There is always some loophole you can use to pay less tax, we all do it.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Exactly. Hell, have more people work as human traffic lights. Pay them some money. Odds are they'll be more effective in the rain than what we currently have in Sandton and surrounds.
But no, you have the EFF and such advocating for "decent jobs" - literally a case of beggars being choosers - as if people are too good to do menial things to try and better their situation. Go work for a few bucks, learn a skill and if you feel you're getting ripped off, start your own business doing the same thing, whether it's carpentry or whatever else.

That is the big difference, (as far as I know) trade unions are illegal in China, hence they can get away with paying you R10 a day. Is that R10 better than nothing? Is it worth the job you are doing?

 

[Messugga]

That is the big difference, (as far as I know) trade unions are illegal in China, hence they can get away with paying you R10 a day. Is that R10 better than nothing? Is it worth the job you are doing?

That's up to each person to decide for themselves. There are people who would work for that. Can you live on it? Probably not. That's why I say that it should be a supplement to the grant system. You could also tie it in with other systems. Want free tertiary education? Sure, provided you or your parents aren't sitting purely on grants (having one of these jobs makes you eligible for free tertiary education/assistance).
We have a culture of people wanting handouts. Well guess what - people in the 1800s often worked until the day they died. Hell, my dad worked 7 days a week for a long time, to make ends meet. If you have nothing, you're not in a position to demand. You need to work to dig yourself out of the hole. The world doesn't owe you a thing.