Terreblanche made my week .

[d0b33]

And the resident AWB Brigade like Frankie have entertained us once again.

 

[sox63]

I know exactly what they where and what they did

You seem to lack the understanding of the picture I painted. You also seem to lack the understanding that We the white people of SA created this mess. We never stood back and said we didn't. But we want to fix the past not repeat it. But everything I painted about Africa, the Africa mentality and the corruption you ignore Care to comment on the WC billions?

What about the World Cup Billions? The new facilities that will be available? Or the expansion of infrustructure that was in need of attention?

Corruption is rife dude, wherever there are large amounts of money in play, there is bound to be some foul play. GLOBALLY!

 

[rebel998]

Well, one thing is for sure. The end of apartheid was not the end of our problems here.

I just wish another party can have a go at running the country because the anc has no clue.

 

[Pitbull]

What about the World Cup Billions? The new facilities that will be available? Or the expansion of infrustructure that was in need of attention?

Corruption is rife dude, wherever there are large amounts of money in play, there is bound to be some foul play. GLOBALLY!

So instead of investing that Billions into something that would be able to sustain the Jobs they created for this project or at least could have been invested into training the less educated, maybe fixing the Public education system they have in place now.

You say it's good for creating stadiums which will be pretty worthless after the WC, fixing roads which should have been fixed and upgraded 14 years ago and all for what? To show the World that SA is not what it's painted by the rest of the world? Buying an image which is nothing short desperate....

I can think of a million ways that money could have been invested in SA's people rather than it's image

 

[semiautomatix]

Look at the nazis they didnt even have weapans.

Actually, I think that was the Polish... and they lost... badly.

 

[zippy]

Aah, I see. So you're talking about soldiers trained during the apartheid years?

Sorry, you'll have to get someone else. Most of us have done our bit of fighting and won't have any part of politics these days.

But the anc govt is taking the rightwing threat serious, believe you me.

Indeed, I for one nolonger give a toss

 

[Mila]

Nah dude, clearly you lack the basic skill of imagination, if you fail to see that the police force you speak of, was nothing more than the South African version of Gustapo.

We know that What we are saying is:

Imagine if those people were never taught to discriminate but they were taught to serve and protect and run a country like they did.

A country where we only picked on the criminals and the corrupt. That does sound like a good deal does it not?

So lets scrap that.

What do you guys think would have to happen for the government to get a hold on crime?
(I saw Carte Blanche and I'm scared, 50 people a day gets killed!!)
I think crime is out of control and more police officers will help but not solve the problem.
I’m not blaming anybody, I just need to see some light at the end of the tunnel.


Military action?

 

[smokey]

Look at the nazis they didnt even have weapans.

...

So they attacked the Russians with peanuts and Halibut then? Defeated the French with Swiss cheese and tacos? *facepalm*

 

[Palimino]

Originally Posted by Pitbull
You missed the part where I said <Remove Appartheid> The same Police force would have been represented by people of all races and colour same with the army and so worth. Do you lack the basic human skill of imagination?

Nah dude, clearly you lack the basic skill of imagination, if you fail to see that the police force you speak of, was nothing more than the South African version of Gustapo.

I don't think anyone on the forum thinks that the Apartheid was a golden age. I think here were aspects of society at the time of Apartheid that were admirable, but then there were aspects of Ghengis Khan's empire that were admirable. It doesn't mean we want to go back there, it just means that it would be nice if we could preserve what is good when we throw out what is bad. Not label everything bad by association. It wasn’t ‘admirable’ but even justice for blacks was often not too bad under apartheid. Many of the formally ‘advantaged’ see no future for themselves or their families in the new ‘improved’ SA. Other than direct contact with the apartheid authorities, I would argue that life was better for the ‘disadvantaged’ than in the current shambolic system.

I have a close friend who is (was) a game ranger under apartheid. He frequently had to deal with criminals on his reserve with crimes ranging from the petty, through poaching (his concern) to murder. The criminal was always given the choice of justice from their local chief or the SAP. WITHOUT EXCEPTION and with no hesitation they chose the SAP. The criminal’s treatment from the SAP under apartheid couldn’t have been pleasant, but was infinitely preferable to tribal justice. As horrible as it may have been, there was a framework of law.

This is best illustrated with an anecdote. A murderer was captured in the reserve. He confessed.

Aside: He hid the body up a tree – I kid you not.

He was given the usual choice of justice from the local chief or the SAP. As usual, the SAP was chosen. The SAP were contacted to pick him up. They were at the beginning of their patrol and the prisoner would have to ride in the back of the van over rough and potholed dirt roads (they carried 2 spare wheels in the back) while they completed their patrol circuit as the station was 2 hours away.

The ‘brutality’ of apartheid was exemplified by chucking the self-confessed murderer in the back of the van with the two spare wheels and driving fast over the bad roads (taxpayers money) for the remainder of their patrol. The wheels bounced around (you couldn’t control two) and a swearing and bruised murderer was delivered to the police station. Doesn’t sound too bad for a murderer.

 

[Mila]

Doesn’t sound too bad for a murderer.

+10



Did you see the protesters on last nights news? That police officer also looked a bit gatvol when he "helped" the guy into the police van

 

[STS]

...

So they attacked the Russians with peanuts and Halibut then? Defeated the French with Swiss cheese and tacos? *facepalm*

there there *pats your back* maybe it was very hot swiss cheese and tacos

 

[Json C]

Like it or hate it: the police force back then were very good at what they did. The same cannot be said of the police force today. The conviction rate alone is enough evidence of that.

Back then, salaries were capped for civil servants. Housing subsidies and benefits were mostly the same (whether you were a policeman, a railway worker, a telkom employee, teachers, etc, salaries were similar and benefits were mostly identical).

Today things work differently. The salaries paid to policemen are not comparable to teachers and telkom employees, etc. The lower salaries and very short-term training means that it attracts a segment of the population that in all likelihood cannot really find alternative work due mostly to poor education and perhaps even lower intelligence. What this boils down to: the police service is filled with idiots. The really intelligent coppers will rise to the top over time, but the bulk of the police force won't.

Think of it this way: how can you give a guy that can barely read and write 6 months training, a gun and a *** salary and expect him to be armed with the ability to fight crime driven by complex, sophisticated and very ballsy syndicates?

Now things get even more interesting: expand the powers of these poorly trained idiots with the power of "Shoot to Kill".

The real solution to sorting out crime in this country is very very simple: let the dumbasses work in the metro departments and handle "soft" crimes such as petty offences, traffic infringements, etc; and let the SAPS get trained up and capable to get 70%+ convictions. The key here is good training and better intelligence.

 

[STS]

Like it or hate it: the police force back then were very good at what they did. The same cannot be said of the police force today. The conviction rate alone is enough evidence of that.

i've always thought the police force is good, it's the justice system that is in shambles.

Back then, salaries were capped for civil servants. Housing subsidies and benefits were mostly the same (whether you were a policeman, a railway worker, a telkom employee, teachers, etc, salaries were similar and benefits were mostly identical).

Today things work differently. The salaries paid to policemen are not comparable to teachers and telkom employees, etc. The lower salaries and very short-term training means that it attracts a segment of the population that in all likelihood cannot really find alternative work due mostly to poor education and perhaps even lower intelligence. What this boils down to: the police service is filled with idiots. The really intelligent coppers will rise to the top over time, but the bulk of the police force won't.

during apartheid i think the police force was much smaller, more white and much less concerned about human rights, especially from the stories i've heard from an ex-policeman. there is just a larger poplution to be defending now, and i wouldn't go so far as to call them idiots so much as uneducated. we give the police a hard time, forgetting the police that really DO try hard to do their best despite constant criticism and poor salary.

Think of it this way: how can you give a guy that can barely read and write 6 months training, a gun and a *** salary and expect him to be armed with the ability to fight crime driven by complex, sophisticated and very ballsy syndicates?

Now things get even more interesting: expand the powers of these poorly trained idiots with the power of "Shoot to Kill".

i think police were cautious before, being lectured on how they could have handled the situation properly, better and how they acted irresponsibilly. if you're lying on the ground with your hands on your head, as opposed to reaching into your jacketand standing straight up, you won't be seen as a potential criminal.

The real solution to sorting out crime in this country is very very simple: let the dumbasses work in the metro departments and handle "soft" crimes such as petty offences, traffic infringements, etc; and let the SAPS get trained up and capable to get 70%+ convictions. The key here is good training and better intelligence.

i think a better way of solving crime would be to give people property and possessions that they'd have to look after, making people more aware of the value of property and more cautious of losing it. police is good too but i often feel that this is a "i wish all the bad people would just disappear" feeling rather than a way of helping people get out of a life of crime.

 

[Json C]

i think a better way of solving crime would be to give people property and possessions that they'd have to look after, making people more aware of the value of property and more cautious of losing it. police is good too but i often feel that this is a "i wish all the bad people would just disappear" feeling rather than a way of helping people get out of a life of crime.

Unfortunately this has been proven to not work very well. Basically - the problem is the word "give". When people are handed things, they simply don't look after it. In Afrikaans, there is a saying "Erfgoed is swerfgoed" which basically means that inheritances are often squandered.

In this country, people are given houses (property). Often these houses are left in utter disrepair in a matter of months. Similarly, fully profitable farms have been handed to people in land redistribution deals, only to have many of those farms reduced to baron wastelands where all the equipment and infastructure was gutted and sold off for profit. When people don't work for their rewards, this is often the result.

You also forget that a life of crime is all many people know. The rewards of crime are almost instant (a cash heist for example can nett hundreds of thousands of rands in just a few hours) and incomparable to any real job. With such a insanely low conviction rate (less than 9% of all criminal proceedings result in any conviction), the risk is very low.

Lastly, on your point of the justice system needing sorting out. Investigative abilities of the police is the reason for the low conviction rates. The reason is simple: the police simply do not have the manpower and intelligence to follow a case through from start to convition. The criminal proceeding hinges on evidence. The bulk of all cases are postponed because evidence is not ready, or witnesses are not available, or because dockets have been tampered with or lost. All of that can be traced to incompetency in the police force. It's odd how everyone (including the politicians) always say the justice system is the problem, when in reality it is the policemen on the ground that are simply not capable to perform the job well enough to enforce a conviction.

 

[STS]

Unfortunately this has been proven to not work very well. Basically - the problem is the word "give". When people are handed things, they simply don't look after it. In Afrikaans, there is a saying "Erfgoed is swerfgoed" which basically means that inheritances are often squandered.

In this country, people are given houses (property). Often these houses are left in utter disrepair in a matter of months. Similarly, fully profitable farms have been handed to people in land redistribution deals, only to have many of those farms reduced to baron wastelands where all the equipment and infastructure was gutted and sold off for profit. When people don't work for their rewards, this is often the result.

You also forget that a life of crime is all many people know. The rewards of crime are almost instant (a cash heist for example can nett hundreds of thousands of rands in just a few hours) and incomparable to any real job. With such a insanely low conviction rate (less than 9% of all criminal proceedings result in any conviction), the risk is very low.

Lastly, on your point of the justice system needing sorting out. Investigative abilities of the police is the reason for the low conviction rates. The reason is simple: the police simply do not have the manpower and intelligence to follow a case through from start to convition. The criminal proceeding hinges on evidence. The bulk of all cases are postponed because evidence is not ready, or witnesses are not available, or because dockets have been tampered with or lost. All of that can be traced to incompetency in the police force. It's odd how everyone (including the politicians) always say the justice system is the problem, when in reality it is the policemen on the ground that are simply not capable to perform the job well enough to enforce a conviction.

i wouldn't say give so much as have to work for a decent job, you could give away 100 cars, but if you have a person living in a location and he earns enough money fo ra car, he is going to look after that car. he is not going to go commit a badly thought out crime when he has recently acquired something that makes his life easier and allows him to apply for better jobs.

i'd like to think it's due to incompetence tha tthe justice system isn't doing very well, but it's also from people who know how to abuse it. how hard can it be to "lose" a gun? while i believe there are many people who commit crime out of desperation and idiocy, there are also people who do it for evil reasons.

a life of crime is probably all they know, i was reading a book on it where gangsters are romanticised, where it's seen as a heroes dream to live that kind of life. i don't know how much of it is true, but i know you have to be more than a little educated to have a mind for numbers and scams. in this case it is better to have a better police force, and i agree with you, but i still think house robberied and muggings are more common that cash heists and autobank bombings

 

[Mila]

Lastly, on your point of the justice system needing sorting out. Investigative abilities of the police is the reason for the low conviction rates. The reason is simple: the police simply do not have the manpower and intelligence to follow a case through from start to convition. The criminal proceeding hinges on evidence. .

I saw this on Carte Blance. Most of our police force are not much more than Boete Bessies and they are either unwilling or un-able to study and work though physical training to get a higher position.
The same thing that happened to SANDF. The people never studied they stayed “troepe”.

Now we have hundreds of these “ boete Bessies” and nothing higher up.

Yes we have to start with education but how long will that be before we see a difference?

 

[Json C]

while i believe there are many people who commit crime out of desperation and idiocy, there are also people who do it for evil reasons.

You've hit the nail on the head - albeit for a completely different discussion. The crux on how to really combat crime is to understand why crime is committed - and in south africa there is probably a varying range of reasons. One would probably need an indepth annual study to truly understand the nuances of crime in this country. One thing is for sure though: there is no way to assign one global reason for crime in this country (politicians love blaming poverty for example). Of course poverty can be a factor in some crimes, but how is it, for example, a factor in rape or in the fleecing of investors in some type of pyramid scheme?

a life of crime is probably all they know, i was reading a book on it where gangsters are romanticised, where it's seen as a heroes dream to live that kind of life. i don't know how much of it is true, but i know you have to be more than a little educated to have a mind for numbers and scams. in this case it is better to have a better police force, and i agree with you, but i still think house robberied and muggings are more common that cash heists and autobank bombings

You're right but there's many factors one should consider wrt burglary: Burglary is a relatively easy crime to commit with low risks and relatively high rewards. Burglary is often over reported (usually for insurance scams). There are millions more houses to burgle than cash vans to heist or atms to bomb. There is also less planning, resources and manpower required to burgle a residence than to take on a cash van.

Incidentally, an interesting research piece indicated that the bulk of burglaries (somewhere between 60 and 70% IIRC) are committed thanks to tip-offs from people in the employ of the homeowners or tenants.


It is also a world wide problem and will never be eradicated. In 2008/2009 there were almost 247k cases reported. But burglary is not considered violent crime and accounts for the more "petty" type crimes. House robbery, on the other hand is far more violent and that is the stat that has the politicians really rattled. At 18438 it's a fair amount.

Unfortunately in South Africa a lot of emphasis is placed on wealth and possessions as an indicator of success. As long as there is an easy means to obtain material wealth and possession some folks will exploit those means in any and every possible way. And it happens on every walk of life - from the poorest of the poor to the mega rich.

 

[Json C]

I saw this on Carte Blance. Most of our police force are not much more than Boete Bessies and they are either unwilling or un-able to study and work though physical training to get a higher position.
The same thing that happened to SANDF. The people never studied they stayed “troepe”.

Now we have hundreds of these “ boete Bessies” and nothing higher up.

Yes we have to start with education but how long will that be before we see a difference?

The education these guys receive should be continuous and updated annually. Criminal syndicates today are extremely high-tech, have access to a wealth of insider info and are not afraid of the police as they are often better equipped and have access to more resources.

Lots of people say the police are well equipped - but consider this: how many times have you read or heard a report on a crime where some of the suspects escaped on foot. WTF? Why are our cops so fat and unfit that they can't catch criminals who are running away on foot?

For starters the police academy must be extended to 3 years - with one full year on crime scene investigation and basic forensics. Thereafter updated, mandatory short courses should be cycled througout the force every year. The police need to be smarter to combat crime.

 

[STS]

excellent posts Json_C

 

[Morgoth]

wow I guess all 4 members of the AWB is still very active!