The Audi Thread

Dolby said:
Yup - the initial engaging. It may only be a few hundred milliseconds, but it can be felt and is irritating. Coming from a supercharged 3.0 manual to an S Tronic 2.0T, it feels like the car takes 2 seconds to actual move between both the lags. Once moving I love it though.
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Like I said I would expect it to do this and it would be horrible otherwise. It's a non-issue when you get used to it.

Now if you told me the fact that the thing doesn't like going up hills that are gravel...and will beach itself in the smallest bit of sand for a lack of manual clutch operation...then I would say that's a valid complaint.


... then it isn't manual if if's between the parameters. It's a gimmick that allows you to change between 2,000 - 6,000 only. Even if you're in 'manual' and stop in 3rd gear, it'll default to 1st automatically. So in those 3 scenarios it does everything automatically and there's little extra control.
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Again it's protecting the car.

It's not meant to give you a perfect manual gearbox by clicking a button. It just gives you options.

Personally I do see it as a gimmick as well...since I pretty much never use it. There is no need for it at all as the car is perfectly intelligent enough to drive itself around in D.

You don't need all this manual control. Focus on the road and corner entry and exit and let the car worry about the gears.

I just flick it to S when I want to overtake quickly.

Sport changes in the same spot as D - so it revs no higher anyhow. The only thing Sport seems to do is hold the gear as opposed to shifting up when your foot comes off. I can put it in Sport and drive normally .... then it shifts at 3,000rpm, just like D. Sport, I imagine, will help with the below track issue - but nothing in a straight line.
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The "default" at which it changes is higher and I think it does change ever so slightly higher in the rev range as well, but a paper value really. I think in D it's 3500rpm and in S it's higher but can't remember when exactly.

But again I hardly ever see the need for it. The DSG box is well sorted to look after itself. Like most dynamic systems in the world and people wanting to override them...the computer does a better job than the human.

Plenty still prefer a manual a car for driver enjoyment ; look at the links I've sent and check the people that owned both. Control and enjoyment is generally the manual.
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Yes I get the preference factor. My point was related to the real world factors that it's actually better and more efficient.

Like people who want to rock 3310's because you know Smartphones are too much and something will break etc.

EDIT : Like I said earlier, I'll take the S Tronic any day - but the lags compared to my manual are definitely noticeable. I see you almost looked at a C30 T5? Golf 6 GTI using either LC, Sport or Drive couldn't out launch me simply mashing my pedal down.
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Well now you aren't even comparing the same two cars so it's very hard to say DSG is the difference here.

Also you forget that no two drivers are equal either.

I'm not really into the dicing game, but the DSG is faster than it's manual counterparts every time OF THE SAME CAR.
 
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SauRoNZA said:
but the DSG is faster than it's manual counterparts every time OF THE SAME CAR.
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... but less exciting :P

Look - I said I'd choose it any day, and I did.

I sold my previous car only for the gearbox. As a direct comparison between the two, I can tell you the S Tronic is boring to drive spiritedly. The manual mode is a joke (ie gimmick) and there is lag. That's all I said - and they're all true.

By the way, manual S4 vs S Tronic S4 yielded the same speed up until higher gears, where the manul started edging ahead. I'll get the guys mentioning this shortly
 
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I don't know hey.

I used to be just like you choosing manual over everything but now I just don't see the benefits any more.

To me manual is only good for making a slow or underpowered car feel faster than it really is and doesn't belong in a properly fast car.

Drove a manual RS4 the other day and it was a terrible experience. The owner also lamented that he wished he had gone for the automatic.

S4 manual vs S4 Tronic probably run different ratios? Only reason it should be different in speeds for the same gears.
 
Here : Sorry for the wall of text

The cars:
B8 S4, manual with intake and exhaust
B8 S4, s-tronic with intake
8P RS3, s-tronic with Chipbox

Altitude: approximately 1300 masl
Weather: overcast, 18 deg C

RS3 vs manual S4: Rolling from about 5 km/h:
S4 jumps ahead, and has to tap off the gas to give the RS3 time to catch up. When the RS3 catches the S4 accelerates again. The RS3 takes the lead and opens up until the S4 is at his rear bumper. Gap stays like this until about 160km/h when the S4 starts to gain. S4 ends with about half a car lead at 230 km/h. (No video)

RS3 vs s-tronic S4: Rolling from about 5 km/h:
S4 gets better start (again turbo lag on RS3 a disadvantage) and takes the lead which is maintained with the RS3 unable to close the gap again (gaps stays relatively constant). Video available

RS3 vs manual S4: Rolling from 100 km/h:
S4 jumps the RS3 and has to tap off the gas to give the RS3 time to catch up. RS3 comes past and opens gap to about one car. Gap stays like this until about 160 km/h when S4 starts to close marginally (no video).

RS3 vs s-tronic S4: Rolling from 100 km/h:
RS3 initially opens up a slight gap (almost one car), but from ±160 km/h the S4 closes this gap again (video available).

RS3 vs manual S4: From the line, RS3 with launch control:
S4 drops the clutch slightly after the RS3 pulls away. RS3 opens about 4 cars before gap stays like that. Game over for the S4 (video available). I will add though that I didn't launch hard as I have come to appreciate a clutch as a very precious commodity (the Mouse helped me to express my emotions this appropriately). Had I launched at about 4000 rpm the outcome would have been more-or-less the same as with the s-tronic, which is on video.

RS3 vs s-tronic S4: From the line, RS3 with launch control, S4 with handbrake launch:
S4 gets a good start due to handbrake launch, but RS3 pulls away and again opens substantial gap that stays like that (video available).

Conclusion based on these runs:
1. Turbo lag on the RS3 counts against it in rolling runs. The cars are dead even when taking lag out of the equation, with the RS3 somewhat quicker in the first 3 gears and the S4 marginally quicker in 4th.
2. In a rolling race where the RS3 suffers lag the S4 has the advantage and will take the win if it doesn't back off the accelerator.
3. From the line with the RS3 using LC the S4 does not have the legs to catch up. It will be game over for 1/4 mile and 1km. (Against a stock one I suspect the S4 will eventually catch up and pass.)
4. I would call these cars dead even once the effects of turbo lag and launch control are ignored.
5. Based on the above, these specific S4's should run ahead of a stock RS3, based on Heinstein's comparison of before and after Chipbox...except in a TLGP where launch control in the RS3 wins.

Manual S4 vs S-tronic S4:
We also ran the two S4's against one another, rolling from about 5km/h. These cars have been on the dyno together in the past, and the manual is slightly stronger - there should be about 10 to 15 kW in it. The s-tronic however has slightly shorter gearing and more rapid shift which makes it as quick in the first 4 gears. The cars ran head-to-head until 5th gear when the manual started pulling away ever so slightly. For most races in and around town, stock-for-stock, the s-tronic should have the edge. Video available.
 
I came across an RS3 S Tronic in my manual S4 and he couldn't get away from from rolling. From the start using his LC, he jumped me from far ... but rolling was neck on neck.

I posted that on the forum, which started the guys arguing and eventually all met on a private road to settle once and for all - and they got similar results to me.

I almost traded my manual for an S Tronic S4, so took that for a spin and again ... didn't feel that amazing to me. Thought there were a few choices I could have done better myself *shrug* But I guess up to the individual.

In my next car, I'll give up the excitment for an S Tronic any day, even with the lag ...
 
Dolby said:
I came across an RS3 S Tronic in my manual S4 and he couldn't get away from from rolling. From the start using his LC, he jumped me from far ... but rolling was neck on neck.

I posted that on the forum, which started the guys arguing and eventually all met on a private road to settle once and for all - and they got similar results to me.

I almost traded my manual for an S Tronic S4, so took that for a spin and again ... didn't feel that amazing to me. Thought there were a few choices I could have done better myself *shrug* But I guess up to the individual.

In my next car, I'll give up the excitment for an S Tronic any day, even with the lag ...
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Well, again you are comparing two very different cars so you can't exclusively say that the gearbox is the difference.

The RS4 is a turbo charged small engined hatchback, I expect an S4 to catch it on rollon or at least for it to be similar due to the extremely different nature in engines.

Even your own quote...

We also ran the two S4's against one another, rolling from about 5km/h. These cars have been on the dyno together in the past, and the manual is slightly stronger - there should be about 10 to 15 kW in it. The s-tronic however has slightly shorter gearing and more rapid shift which makes it as quick in the first 4 gears. The cars ran head-to-head until 5th gear when the manual started pulling away ever so slightly. For most races in and around town, stock-for-stock, the s-tronic should have the edge. Video available.
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Says that the manual car it outputting more power yet DESPITE this the S-tronic make it as fast...so here you are actually giving credit to the S-tronic.

Then the manual leads ahead at the end...because it has more power.

This is your own quote that is saying this that the S-tronic has the advantage over a more powerful car except at higher speeds where power matters to counter wind resistance (leaving gearing aside that is).

Anyway we can go around in circles about this endlessly and if you like manual you are going to go for manual. The only thing I implore (other) people to do is to at the very least try an S-tronic/DSG before automatically going for the manual because they have the wrong perception of what type of automatic it is.

*****

The more power a car has the less and less I'm inclined to want a manual because the more power there is the more there is to worry about.

Even a bare bones Cobra like I've driven before which has no ABS and no TCS or STM I would prefer to have in old school torque converted automatic rather than the manual that I had driven it in because there is just so much to manage in that car already. Granted it's a weekend "second" car so maybe if it actually came to being my money I would have gone for the manual still as it's not a daily drive.

The RS4 I would take with S-tronic (do you even get S-tronic with them or is it too torque and therefore Tiptronic?) every single time because it was such a terrible car to drive in manual. I thought it was just me struggling since it was my first time in the car but the owner having done 10000km+ immediately told me when I commented that he wished it was automatic instead.

Maybe in a track situation it would be a little different...but even for the maybe 5% of the time that that happens I wouldn't compromise the other 95% behind the wheel.
 
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Dolby said:
These cars have been on the dyno together in the past, and the manual is slightly stronger - there should be about 10 to 15 kW in it. The s-tronic however has slightly shorter gearing and more rapid shift which makes it as quick in the first 4 gears.
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SauRoNZA said:
Says that the manual car it outputting more power yet DESPITE this the S-tronic make it as fast...so here you are actually giving credit to the S-tronic.

Then the manual leads ahead at the end...because it has more power.
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Could also be due to shorter gear ratios? (which we can't really leave aside)
Or perhaps the DSG gearbox loses more on the transfer, so on the road of all DSG is lower on a dyno?

We're in the same camp - you keep forgetting ;) I'm just saying they do have disadvantages and they're not exciting.
 
Dolby said:
We're in the same camp - you keep forgetting ;) I'm just saying they do have disadvantages and they're not exciting.
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Yip, perhaps they're more practical and comfortable, but nothing beats the excitement and control of a manual.
 
Dolby said:
Could also be due to shorter gear ratios? (which we can't really leave aside)
Or perhaps the DSG gearbox loses more on the transfer, so on the road of all DSG is lower on a dyno?

We're in the same camp - you keep forgetting ;) I'm just saying they do have disadvantages and they're not exciting.
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You are saying what I said like 4 posts ago.

I don't see there being any transfer power different though but the ratios would definitely play a roll and I expect the DSG's to all have shorter ratios because of the fact they can shift faster.

I'm saying they have advantages and I find them very exciting.

But it's all circumstantial and two different cars will behave very differently in different situations and conditions.


Jeez for that matter I've had S3's catch me on the bike when the road is long enough doing top speed runs because of aerodynamic disadvantage. That doesn't make them faster...that just means they have more power and less aerodynamic drag in a very circumstantial situation.

I'll still rape them on 0-100 and roll-on from just about any speed below 200km/h. But roll-on from 200 we'll probably be very equal and then they'll pull me with the top end advantage....but we'll need a moer long (private) road for that.

Real world bike wins every time. And that's my point with the S-Tronic...in the real world it also wins every time.
 
PostmanPot said:
Yip, perhaps they're more practical and comfortable, but nothing beats the excitement and control of a manual.
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See I think I'm just so over it.

That excitement and control is nothing but an illusion to me now.

Which is exactly what it is...an illusion.

You have more control with an DSG by virtue of the fact your hand never leaves the wheels. And let's forget the Audi version that auto-shifts for a moment and then the hanging onto a gear problem is also exactly the same manual to dual clutch so that control remains the same. So all things considered about "control" when you bring facts to the table the manual does lose. People just think in their mind they have more control.

Excitement is also very relative. Like I said earlier manual makes slower lower powered cars feel faster than they really are. Read "faster" as more exciting. To me it's very exciting that the car changes much faster than I ever could, meaning I can focus on the road and hit the apex at a higher speed which is exciting for me.

You on the other hand find it exciting to waggle a stick around and move your feet. Literally different strokes for different folks.


My own car aside and put me in something genuinely exciting like the RS4 I mentioned...and I still go S-tronic every single time. I smashed that thing to Hout Bay and back with virtually the whole road to myself and the only thing I would change is the gearbox to make it better. Well that and the massive pair of bolt cutters in the boot that were smashing about the whole time.
 
SauRoNZA said:
You have more control with an DSG by virtue of the fact your hand never leaves the wheels. And let's forget the Audi version that auto-shifts for a moment and then the hanging onto a gear problem is also exactly the same manual to dual clutch so that control remains the same. So all things considered about "control" when you bring facts to the table the manual does lose. People just think in their mind they have more control.
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Control is all about the gearbox and feeling the car through the pedals and stick, and knowing how it responds, and getting it to do what you want it to do, especially in advance. Shifts are so quick that hands are barely off the steering wheel. They're certainly on the wheel during possibly dangerous situations, we've just recently discussed paddles and cornering in this thread, for example. I see the hands-on-steering wheel thing as moot as they're there 99.9% of the time in a manual.

If you feel never leaving the steering wheel is important, I'm happy for you. Different strokes indeed.
 
Yeah you have a point you should have selected your gear before hitting the hard corner so you won't really be at a loss for control when it comes to the hard work.

So you win that one.
 
SauRoNZA said:
You have more control with an DSG by virtue of the fact your hand never leaves the wheels. And let's forget the Audi version that auto-shifts for a moment and then the hanging onto a gear problem is also exactly the same manual to dual clutch so that control remains the same. So all things considered about "control" when you bring facts to the table the manual does lose. People just think in their mind they have more control.
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The thing is, a large element to actually being in control is having the belief that you are. You're less likely to second guess a decision when you know that only your thought process dictates the outcome. With a DSG, it adds an additional variable that needs to be catered for.
 
I like how you are all talking about the automatic vs manual gearbox and what is your preference based on performance, shift change, power, etc.

My choice was a more simple one based on laziness, I was tired of clutching.
 
AdrianH said:
I like how you are all talking about the automatic vs manual gearbox and what is your preference based on performance, shift change, power, etc.

My choice was a more simple one based on laziness, I was tired of clutching.
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Agreed. Why I also went auto.
Then I got an S-Tronic (not even knowing the difference to Tiptronic at the time) and now I get thrills. Fat fkn thrills.

So you get a lazy @ss car for traffic or chilled driving, and a beast for the moments you want sheer performance. Win/win.
 
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