The Bitcoin Thread

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New all time high just reached, but Luno is fast asleep. :wtf: Hasn't even gone up R1000 yet since this afternoon.
 
Sensorei said:
New all time high just reached, but Luno is fast asleep. :wtf: Hasn't even gone up R1000 yet since this afternoon.
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You understand how markets work, then you'll know that it's a Sunday evening. Who tf, besides bots, trades at this time?
 
Waylander said:
You understand how markets work, then you'll know that it's a Sunday evening. Who tf, besides bots, trades at this time?
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Bitcoin does not operate like regular markets btw. $3 billion on a Sunday. The rest of the world also has Sundays and notifications still go off.
 
Compare that $3bn on Sunday to the other 6 days of the week and you'll see why there's price latency.
 
Waylander said:
You understand how markets work, then you'll know that it's a Sunday evening. Who tf, besides bots, trades at this time?
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These aren't 9 to 5'ers. Traditional markets close over weekends... and sleep at night. There's nothing stopping people trading all day, all night, 7 days a week.
 
Waylander said:
Compare that $3bn on Sunday to the other 6 days of the week and you'll see why there's price latency.
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That's partly why I made the initial post. Go and compare it - Almost like a week day trading volume today. Was expecting more action on Luno despite being a Sunday.
 
garp said:
You don't pay VAT when you buy or sell shares/securities or currencies, so I don't see why there is even a debate about this. Whoever questioned the applicability of VAT to BTC clearly doesn't understand VAT.

I really don't see why anyone could think that VAT has anything to do with this. What input VAT did you pay when you bought the BTC? Answer: none. What VAT is incurred when you buy/sell shares/currencies? Answer: none. Why would BTC be any different?

If you trade BTC in and out of Rands frequently with the intention of making an income, you are liable for income tax in private capacity or company tax if in a company capacity. If you simply buy as an investment and sell at a profit, then it's CGT. VAT has nothing to do with it.
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Because, according to SARS, Bitcoin is NOT a currency nor a share. It is a 'good', and goods attract VAT (over R1m of revenue). If you have input VAT, you can deduct that from your output VAT, and you're only liable for the difference. But for Bitcoin, there is no invoice/receipt with input VAT, so you are liable for VAT on the full amount of the sale. So if you sold R2m worth of BTC, your first R1m is your 'allowance', but the second R1m you have to pay 14% on.
 
airborne said:
Pretty sure that profit would be viewed the same as forex or share trading profit by a private individual is seen by the taxman, ie the profit is taxable. Still grey area regarding bitcoin and tax but profit is profit and therefore the tax man will want his share.
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We're all in agreement about profit being taxed as income. The question (my question, at least) is about VAT on revenue.
 
matthurley said:
We're all in agreement about profit being taxed as income. The question (my question, at least) is about VAT on revenue.
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Assuming BTC is a widget and not currency.

Then..

On foreign purchase, you'd be charged duties and VAT on import.
On local purchase, you'd be charged VAT if the seller is a VAT registered vendor.

You can then sell it, but can't charge VAT if you not a registered VAT vendor (it's Fraud if you do. )

If you are registered then you will issue a VAT incoice and collect VAT on behalf of the government. (Which you will hand over every other month). If this is the case LUNO will have generate invoices per trade on behalf of seller (or bot)

VAT is an indirect tax on the consumption of goods. Since you can't consume BTC, you'd pay VAT at every change of hand, (effectively 14% of the profit).
 
matthurley said:
Because, according to SARS, Bitcoin is NOT a currency nor a share. It is a 'good', and goods attract VAT (over R1m of revenue). If you have input VAT, you can deduct that from your output VAT, and you're only liable for the difference. But for Bitcoin, there is no invoice/receipt with input VAT, so you are liable for VAT on the full amount of the sale. So if you sold R2m worth of BTC, your first R1m is your 'allowance', but the second R1m you have to pay 14% on.
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While it is true that SARS and the reserve bank are sitting on the fence about whether BTC is a currency or a share, where have they instead defined it as a good/commodity? The notion that selling BTC should attract VAT, although buying BTC does not, seems frankly absurd. So I can buy R2m worth on Luno today, and sell it at the same price tomorrow but now VAT is incurred?
 
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matthurley said:
We're all in agreement about profit being taxed as income. The question (my question, at least) is about VAT on revenue.
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Are we? Surely a gain in BTC should in most cases attract CGT unless it is carried out as a business activity with the intention of producing an income. And in fact, if it were eventually considered a currency, that would not even apply. Bottom line, SARS and the reserve bank need to decide what they're doing here, although I suspect they're enjoying sitting on the fence here, bearing in mind they are in the wonderful position of being able to apply their rulings retrospectively.
 
Do you think it better to invest 13k into expanding my rigs or trading on luno?

I got about 13k to spend this month.
 
InternetSwag said:
Do you think it better to invest 13k into expanding my rigs or trading on luno?

I got about 13k to spend this month.
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Depends on your trading skills lol

Safer to upgrade rigs, as your hardware still carries a value even if you did not make much money

Could probably fit 3x amd cards or 2x1070 cards.
 
"Bitcoin's value is more from speculative traders than use as a currency
If it ever changes, let me know"

Monday thoughts...

BTC is like an insurance policy. Per definition a "Black Swan " event cannot be predicted and can only be retrospectively explained.
Best is to prepare for diverse scenarios.
Can fiat fail, the very fiat that utilizes a centralized banking system with centralized government backing?
I will certainly let you know , but by then likely you wont be able to do anything about it


interesting threads here.....I esp like this tweet

"Debt is the frontier, banks are the colonizers, every generation puts a debt slave population in shackles"

https://twitter.com/jtepper2/status/931977958490886144
https://twitter.com/Schuldensuehner/status/932361236926300162

https://philoforchange.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/feudcap1.jpg
 
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