The Bitcoin Thread

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Thats for you to prove. If it ends up in your bank account they could ask questions. Just declare it. Dont be a leech.

Well I'm only asking here. If you cash out 2million rand of btc you bought 5 years ago it's easy. Declare it and be done with it.

But if you use it as a private wallet over a 4 year period? Should you take note of every transaction?

I sold R25k worth of camera lenses the other day and was paid in btc. Obviously I cashed it out.

Should I declare it? It's a honest question.
 
It's a good question - I'm just saying what comes to mind. I could be wrong,
I'm not a tax expert.

Well I'm only asking here. If you cash out 2million rand of btc you bought 5 years ago it's easy. Declare it and be done with it.

But if you use it as a private wallet over a 4 year period? Should you take note of every transaction?

I sold R25k worth of camera lenses the other day and was paid in btc. Obviously I cashed it out.

Should I declare it? It's a honest question.

Two things come to mind - If it's sitting in your wallet as BTC you'll have a hard time declaring it on any SARS form, I'd say for now there's nothing you can do even if you want to. Anyone - feel free to correct me.

On selling personal assets - how many personal assets do you sell for more than you paid for them other than (perhaps) your home?

http://www.sars.gov.za/TaxTypes/CGT/Assets-CGT/Pages/default.aspx

What is an asset?

We define assets as including—

(a) property of whatever nature, whether movable or immovable, corporeal or incorporeal, excluding any currency, but including any coin made mainly from gold or platinum; and

(b) a right or interest of whatever nature to or in such property;

The definition of an ‘asset’ is of importance, as CGT is, with few exceptions, not triggered until an asset is disposed of. A wide definition has been ascribed to the term, which includes all forms of property and all rights or interests in such property. The exclusion of currency is dealt with below.

A few examples of assets are listed below:
Land and buildings, for example, a factory building, a person’s home, or holiday home;
Shares;
A participatory interest in a collective investment scheme;
An endowment policy;
Collectables, for example, jewellery or an artwork;
Personal-use assets, for example, a boat;
Contractual rights;
Goodwill;
A trade mark;
A loan;
Trading stock. In a going concern a disposal of trading stock will usually not give rise to a capital gain or loss because double deductions and double taxation are prevented in determining base cost and proceeds. However, a capital gain may arise when trading stock is deemed to be disposed of at market value, for example in the case of the death of the owner.
Deferred tax assets

For accounting purposes a deferred tax asset can arise, for example, when income that will be recognised for accounting purposes in a later financial year is subject to tax in the current financial year. The tax paid is recognised as an asset in the current year’s financial statements and only expensed in the year when the related income is recognised for accounting purposes. A deferred tax asset is not, however, an asset for CGT purposes.

Top Tip: the word ‘property’ refers to anything that can be disposed of and turned into money. Things that are incapable of private ownership are excluded.

https://www.moneyweb.co.za/archive/cgt-and-personal-use-assets/
UITENHAGE – In the last couple of weeks I have received a number of questions relating to the sale of your car, with the concern being raised about the potential capital gains tax (CGT) implications.

My immediate answer is that I would like to know how it is possible, with most new vehicles sustaining depreciation of around 20% the moment they are driven off the showroom floor, to make any sort of capital gain, never mind one that would raise Sars’ eyebrows!

Perhaps the question reflects the ignorance of many taxpayers as to what constitutes a capital gain? Certainly, in my own experience, most people who have entered into nervous conversations with me about CGT are under the impression that the moment they sell something, Sars will be after its share, in the form of CGT, on the full sale proceeds.

This is not true, unless the asset was obtained for nothing. As the name of this particular tax indicates, Capital gains tax is the tax payable on a gain in value of an asset. Using a simple example, if you invested in shares with an initial investment of (say) R10 000, held them for longer than three years, and then sold them for R15 000, you would pay CGT on the R5 000 profit.

Assuming that you are on the 30% tax scales, and ignoring the annual exclusion, your CGT bill would be R5 000 x 30% (your tax rate) x 25% (the ‘inclusion rate’, or amount that is taken into account for calculating CGT) – resulting in an amount payable of R375.

Note also that the CGT liability only arises under one of the following three scenarios:

When you sell or donate the asset (unless the donation is to an approved public benefit organisation);
When you die (this gives rise to a so-called ‘deemed disposal); or
When you cease to be a South African resident for tax purposes (this also gives rise to a ‘deemed disposal’)
The other thing to consider is that not all of your assets give rise to a CGT bill.

For instance, your ‘primary residence’ (the Eighth Schedule to the Income Tax Act has a long-winded definition, but for most people this is the home you live in) is exempted from CGT completely, provided that the total gain (profit) is less than R1.5 million. Sales of primary residences where the selling price is less than R2 million are also exempt from CGT even if the gain is more than the R1.5 million primary residence exemption.

A number of so-called ‘personal use’ assets are also excluded from the CGT net. A ‘personal use’ asset is broadly defined in Paragraph 53(2) of the Eighth Schedule as “an asset of a natural person or a special trust that is used mainly for purposes other than the carrying on of a trade”. For those of us who don’t speak tax, this means assets that are used for your personal enjoyment and/or maintenance.

Assets regarded as ‘personal use’ assets includes any assets used ‘mainly’ for non-trade purposes. The courts have held that the term ‘mainly’ means ‘in excess of 50% thereof’, but according to the Sars Comprehensive Guide to Capital Gains Tax, a private motor vehicle that is used for business purposes, for which claims are made against a travel allowance, will not fall fowl of this requirement even if more than 50% of the distance travelled is for business purposes.

Examples of ‘personal use’ assets are: artwork, jewellery, household furniture and effects, a microlight aircraft or hang glider with a mass of 450kg or less, a boat that is 10 metres or less in length, veteran cars, private motor vehicles, and stamp or coin collections.

However, you need to note that certain assets are specifically excluded from the definition of ‘personal use’ assets. An obvious category would be those assets that are purchased for the express purpose of resale. Gains on the sale of such assets, being acquired for the purposes of trade, would not in any event be subject to CGT but to normal income tax.

Other specific exclusions from the definition are:

Coins made mainly from gold or platinum of which the market value is mainly attributable to the material from which it is minted or cast. This means that while collectible coins would be exempt from CGT, Krugerrands and similar coins would not be;
Immovable property – your ‘primary residence’ has specific exemptions as described above, while other immovable property is not regarded as for ‘personal use’. This means that even holiday homes are not exempt from CGT;
An aircraft, the empty mass which exceeds 450 kilograms. Your Lear Jet will therefore not be exempted;
A boat exceeding 10 metres in length. That would be a problem should any South African become a Formula One racing driver. Your rubber duck would however be exempt, unless you have a really big one;
A financial instrument as defined in Section 1 of the income Tax Act. This includes investments such a shares, bonds, and the like;
Any fiduciary, usufructuary or other like interest, the value of which decreases over time. This would mean that while a primary residence is exempt from CGT (within certain limits – see above), “life rights” or the right of use of an asset would not be exempt. Something to bear in mind when drafting your will – leaving your home to the kids, subject to your spouse having the right to live there for the rest of his/her life may be a bad idea, tax-wise – especially if he/she should wish to move or emigrate;
Any long-term policy, for example, an endowment policy or a life policy – these are specifically exempted under Paragraph 55; and
Any short-term policy contemplated in the Short-Term Insurance Act 53 of 1998, to the extent that it relates to any asset that is not a personal-use asset. For example, a policy of insurance against fire or theft in respect of commercial property or a 15 metre yacht would not be exempt, but one covering your rubber duck would enjoy exemption.
 
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Yeah I love the idea of selling items using btc. The buyer doesn't bring me cash. And I don't have to fuss/worry with a potential dodgy eft that takes 3 days to process.

I can instantly see that btc was send to me, the buyer can be gone and I can cash it out in 30mins time.

My only concern would be that sars have a right to audit you 5-years back dated.

In this time you could rake up a lot of income with the sale of personal items that should not attract any CGT.

But they can still ask you to explain these transactions because the money came out of nowhere from a known crypocurrency exchange.

And if they insist that you must explain, you would probably have a very hard time remembering who you sold your lawnmower to 5 years ago.
 
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Yeah I love the idea of selling items using btc. The buyer doesn't bring me cash. And I don't have to fuss/worry with a potential dodgy eft that takes 3 days to process.

I can instantly see that btc was send to me, the buyer can be gone and I can cash it out in 30mins time.

My only concern would be that sars have a right to audit you 5-years back dated.

In this time you could rake up a lot of income with the sale of personal items that should not attract any CGT.

But they can still ask you to explain these transactions because the money came out of nowhere from a known crypocurrency exchange.

And if they insist that you must explain, you would probably have a very hard time remembering who you sold your lawnmower to 5 years ago.
I doubt theyre going to ask you about R1k here R500 there. Its the regular income thats flagged.
 
If you're trading short term it will be taxed as income not as cgt.

I don't think the VAT will be valid... The normal law is that vat applies when your revenue exceeds R1m. But that can't apply to trading, forex or other.

What is revenue though - If I buy 10 BTC for R100k each and then sell them for R115k, my revenue is R1,15m so I need to register for & pay VAT, right?

Happy to pay the income tax on the R15k profit. Just not happy about the VAT.
 
I don’t think this is correct. At least not if you bought and sold BTC in your private capacity, and not trading frequently enough for it to be considered a business activity. At most you should be liable for CGT, in the same way that if you buy and sell a holiday home, you don’t have to pay VAT, just the CGT. At most you should be liable for CGT

It's in my private capacity, but it could be considered a business activity. Traded 40 BTC this month - about 20 bought & 20 sold. Is that enough to be considered a business activity?

Also, I'm sure it's not CGT but income tax. Which I'm happy to pay on the profits. But if I have to pay 14% VAT on 20 BTC sold, then I'm screwed.
 
It's in my private capacity, but it could be considered a business activity. Traded 40 BTC this month - about 20 bought & 20 sold. Is that enough to be considered a business activity?

Also, I'm sure it's not CGT but income tax. Which I'm happy to pay on the profits. But if I have to pay 14% VAT on 20 BTC sold, then I'm screwed.
Pretty sure that profit would be viewed the same as forex or share trading profit by a private individual is seen by the taxman, ie the profit is taxable. Still grey area regarding bitcoin and tax but profit is profit and therefore the tax man will want his share.
 
What is revenue though - If I buy 10 BTC for R100k each and then sell them for R115k, my revenue is R1,15m so I need to register for & pay VAT, right?

Happy to pay the income tax on the R15k profit. Just not happy about the VAT.

You don't pay VAT when you buy or sell shares/securities or currencies, so I don't see why there is even a debate about this. Whoever questioned the applicability of VAT to BTC clearly doesn't understand VAT.

I really don't see why anyone could think that VAT has anything to do with this. What input VAT did you pay when you bought the BTC? Answer: none. What VAT is incurred when you buy/sell shares/currencies? Answer: none. Why would BTC be any different?

If you trade BTC in and out of Rands frequently with the intention of making an income, you are liable for income tax in private capacity or company tax if in a company capacity. If you simply buy as an investment and sell at a profit, then it's CGT. VAT has nothing to do with it.
 
You don’t pay tax when selling one currency and buying another, shouldn’t this apply to BTC etc...?
 
You don't pay VAT when you buy or sell shares/securities or currencies, so I don't see why there is even a debate about this. Whoever questioned the applicability of VAT to BTC clearly doesn't understand VAT.

I really don't see why anyone could think that VAT has anything to do with this. What input VAT did you pay when you bought the BTC? Answer: none. What VAT is incurred when you buy/sell shares/currencies? Answer: none. Why would BTC be any different?

If you trade BTC in and out of Rands frequently with the intention of making an income, you are liable for income tax in private capacity or company tax if in a company capacity. If you simply buy as an investment and sell at a profit, then it's CGT. VAT has nothing to do with it.

Agree, you're not liable to pay VAT if you did not pay VAT in the first place.
 
there are no tax laws re btc yet.
Will likely come sooner than later
if you walk in the street and you pick up a bag with 5K ZAR.....and lets say you know for sure the owner will be untraceable....iow you will harm nobody if you keep it and as it is anonymous nobody will know
who will declare it in this situation ?
Now you take that money and buy btc "over the counter" , and it increases dramatically in dollar value
You hodl it and there is a soft fork....with a reasonable use for the altcoin(iow it also increases a bit in value)......now you have value even more peripheral from your initial investment in btc. You send that btc-variant to an exchange/tumbler and you now have a few monero---or rather you have the private key to the control of that monero on their blockchain....
Who has a right to this increase in value generated?
The value has been generated in cyberspace , no jurisdiction , no resources used of your country of residence. Therefore no protection money needs to be paid to your government to supply services--eg policing/security, trusted 3rd parties(lawyers, courts) , ledgers ( accountants, )
So in the end --who will pay SARS for the (not -used non-existent) protection?
If your conscience is really good, you will then sell an equivalent btc over the counter and put the fiat it on the street
corner where you picked it up with a instruction manual of how to buy btc!

(tax is protection money historically)
 
Bitcoin's value is more from speculative traders than use as a currency.
 
Are trading bots allowed on Luno? I don't mind the ones trading small amounts but the ones filling the order book with a bunch of R10k+ orders gets annoying fast. They keep jumping in front of me and with the low volumes being traded, it gets old fast.
 
Are trading bots allowed on Luno? I don't mind the ones trading small amounts but the ones filling the order book with a bunch of R10k+ orders gets annoying fast. They keep jumping in front of me and with the low volumes being traded, it gets old fast.
That why moved off luno. Feel it is rigged
 
If it ever changes, let me know.

It will, when is not clear.
I reckon developing countries will be the first to adopt it. What is likely to happen IMO is not so much the traditional bankers adopting it, but their clients adopting it, making inefficient traditional banking less relevant.
 
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