The Brexit Thread

[f2wohf]

Look up something called NATO - also established after WW2 . No need for the EU .

And how does NATO work in the case of two member states fighting?

The real war avoidance system is the ancestor of the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community and I agree the UK was not needed in it.

You aren't very clued up in European history, understandable for a subject of the Queen's isolated islands!

 

[f2wohf]

correlation != causation

Well, controlling the materials allowing the others to manufacture weapons and manufacturing weapons in common does not exactly help in developping a warforce sufficient to fight your neighbour as was the case in 1918 and 1939, does it?

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Never said any different. Just pointing out your fantasy of how wonderful Europe was before the EU came and ****ed it up is just that... Fantasy... NATO doesn't seem to be too popular these days either, judging by the noises Mr trump is making

It was a completely different era with colonialism and such. The EU like to think it has enforced peace but that's not really the truth, is it? The EU isn't a military alliance anyhow. I do understand the theory that the EU has made war "costly" in terms of loss of economic output but I'm not sold on that idea. The world has drastically changed since 1945, much of it nothing to do with the EU.

 

[f2wohf]

The EU like to think it has enforced peace but that's not really the truth, is it? The EU isn't a military alliance anyhow.

Ahem...

The primary goal of the Schuman Plan was exactly that:

Schuman proposed that "Franco-German production of coal and steel as a whole be placed under a common High Authority, within the framework of an organisation open to the participation of the other countries of Europe". Such an act was intended to help economic growth and cement peace between France and Germany, who were historic enemies. Coal and steel were vital resources needed for a country to wage war, so pooling those resources between two such enemies was seen as more than symbolic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

Keep digging...

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

You might want to get rid of the Scots too then, they sort of hate the Brits...

By the way, hasn't it been 195 times that we told you that by not being in Shengen, the UK always had the ability to control its immigration and borders, it just never put any effort into it. This reason is a damp squib the size of Trump's blimp.

Please show me where we could control numbers from.EU countries. I will be waiting. And none of this nonsense about emergency brakes on migration or anything. Freedom of movement is one of the four founding pillars of the EU, so...

 

[f2wohf]

Please show me where we could control numbers from.EU countries. I will be waiting. And none of this nonsense about emergency brakes on migration or anything. Freedom of movement is one of the four founding pillars of the EU, so...

You now change goalposts, you went from stopping the hordes of barbarians who hate the West (which I suppose means djihadist that you can stop very easily for reasons of public order and this is perfectly allowed by the European treaties) to stopping EU immigration which is a different subject.

It's three pillars by the way and they do not refer to this but to the EU institutions (EC, CFSP and PJCCM). I guess you want to say the four freedoms.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

by not being in Shengen, the UK always had the ability to control its immigration and borders, it just never put any effort into it

Entirely false, the UK had no choice but to allow free movement per EU legislation, Schengen or no Schengen. A mere 5 years ago when the UK did not want to lift restrictions on the number of Romanians coming across, the EU forced its hand.

It was widely understood to be EU legislation overriding the UK: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10540590/Britain-must-keep-Romanian-and-Bulgarian-restrictions.html

So no, they did not have the unilateral ability / control over their own borders, they still don't until brexit is official. Why the fuss over hordes of EU citizens potentially being deported if they always had control?!? You're either misinformed or intentionally dishonest.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Ahem...

The primary goal of the Schuman Plan was exactly that:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

Keep digging...

What you quoted to me still does not mean it is a military alliance. NATO is a military alliance, not the EU. Yes the EU was borne out from the ashes of WW2 but I've always felt in its original conception it was more about economics.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Well, controlling the materials allowing the others to manufacture weapons and manufacturing weapons in common does not exactly help in developping a warforce sufficient to fight your neighbour as was the case in 1918 and 1939, does it?

None of which require free movement, central legislation or a single market ...

 

[Dave]

Well even Nick Clegg says it is nonsense and he's not even a Brexiteer. Disappointed none of the Cabinet have resigned ...do they really like their ministerial perks so much?

Must say, this is a complete shocker, far worse than if we were in the EU.

The British are of course very reserved people so there won't be rioting like the Frenchies do every few weeks in Paris, but there will be a huge backlash to this. Not sure what form it will take exactly but interesting political times ahead.

Maybe you should have watched last nights Question Time, Priti Patel was given a hard time by virtually the entire audience, including being laughed at more than once. The crowd even cheered and clapped some of the SNP MP's comments about Brexit and there was a huge cheer when the subject of a second referendum came up.

You need to get off the UKIP and EDL Facebook pages and white supremacist websites and maybe you'll realise that hard Brexit is not something the majority of voters want anymore (if it ever was).

 

[f2wohf]

What you quoted to me still does not mean it is a military alliance. NATO is a military alliance, not the EU. Yes the EU was borne out from the ashes of WW2 but I've always felt in its original conception it was more about economics.

No, the original conception was to forcefully impose a system where France and Germany need each other to manufacture weapons and cannot attack each other.

The economic aspects came much later.

I don't know what you need, just read the link:

The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step. The Treaty would create a common market for coal and steel among its member states which served to neutralise competition between European nations over natural resources, particularly in the Ruhr.

I was referring to this part of your sentence

The EU like to think it has enforced peace

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

You now change goalposts, you went from stopping the hordes of barbarians who hate the West (which I suppose means djihadist that you can stop very easily for reasons of public order and this is perfectly allowed by the European treaties) to stopping EU immigration which is a different subject.

I'd think someone who flys the Tri-Colour at every opportunity might have knowledge that there is a sizable homegrown Muslim population in France as there is in Germany and Belgium. Indeed, if I remember correctly almost all the Muslim perpertrators in the Bataclan massacre were born in Europe?

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Maybe you should have watched last nights Question Time, Priti Patel was given a hard time by virtually the entire audience, including being laughed at more than once. The crowd even cheered and clapped some of the SNP MP's comments about Brexit and there was a huge cheer when the subject of a second referendum came up.

You need to get off the UKIP and EDL Facebook pages and white supremacist websites and maybe you'll realise that hard Brexit is not something the majority of voters want anymore (if it ever was).

Lol. I don't surf white supremacist websites nor do I follow EDL or other crap like that. I do follow Nigel Farage on Twitter and he is one of the most popular politicians on Twitter with over 1m+ followers. If he is so beyond the pale, why does he have a popular radio show on LBC, writes for the Telegraph on occasion and during the referendum was constantly on the BBC, Sky etc? Who made you expert on what Leavers want, by the way? You voted Remain so you literally have no idea. I hang out on conservative websites where most of the readership clearly voted Leave and they are pissed off right now. Just remember there are more Leavers than Remainers...

 

[f2wohf]

Entirely false, the UK had no choice but to allow free movement per EU legislation, Schengen or no Schengen. A mere 5 years ago when the UK did not want to lift restrictions on the number of Romanians coming across, the EU forced its hand.

It was widely understood to be EU legislation overriding the UK: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10540590/Britain-must-keep-Romanian-and-Bulgarian-restrictions.html

So no, they did not have the unilateral ability / control over their own borders, they still don't until brexit is official. Why the fuss over hordes of EU citizens potentially being deported if they always had control?!? You're either misinformed or intentionally dishonest.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.

First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.

Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]

Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]

http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/

But the biggest deception is this: we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Other countries, such as Belgium, regularly repatriate thousands of individuals based on this directive. If the public knew we had this ability, perhaps the fear that exists would dissipate. Why is the government not using it, and why is the British public not aware of it?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

 

[f2wohf]

I'd think someone who flys the Tri-Colour at every opportunity might have knowledge that there is a sizable homegrown Muslim population in France as there is in Germany and Belgium. Indeed, if I remember correctly almost all the Muslim perpertrators in the Bataclan massacre were born in Europe?

And they can perfectly be prevented access to the UK's territory on grounds of public order. The UK just chose to never implement it.

I completely get that Narrow and yourself are pro Brexit and anti EU. No need to make up fake reasons to justify it, it’s your right to be against it.

 

[Dave]

Just remember there are more Leavers than Remainers...

Proof of this, that in 2018 you think there is still a majority.

Let me start






https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/


Now, your turn...

 

[OrbitalDawn]

It was a completely different era with colonialism and such. The EU like to think it has enforced peace but that's not really the truth, is it? The EU isn't a military alliance anyhow. I do understand the theory that the EU has made war "costly" in terms of loss of economic output but I'm not sold on that idea. The world has drastically changed since 1945, much of it nothing to do with the EU.

Dude, no. It's not that wars are costly, which has always been true. It's that closer economic integration and providing a forum to resolve the problems that lead to wars has helped secure peace in Europe. There hasn't been major conflict for almost a century, which is entirely unheard of prior in European history.

Please show me where we could control numbers from.EU countries. I will be waiting. And none of this nonsense about emergency brakes on migration or anything. Freedom of movement is one of the four founding pillars of the EU, so...

UK Could Have Reduced EU Immigration by 82% Under EU Rules

You strike me as someone who doesn't actually consider or think about the positions of people you disagree with at all. Stop swallowing Farage's lies.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Wherever Brexiters look, they see dead ends

Cabinet Brexiters are struggling to counter May because they have no plan. They are all talk and no trousers. What alternatives do they propose? There are none. What customs system do they have apart from 'don't check the lorries'? There is none. What position do they have on the balance between alignment and trade? Nothing. They have no contribution at all except for their own preening self-indulgence. They have not engaged in any of the details of the debate, so they have nothing to contribute to it.

This has been the case since the start: the greatest weakness of Brexit is the character and quality of those who promote it. By avoiding detail they did not escape it. They put themselves at its mercy.

Spot on.

 

[Whright]

if each European Country had their own vote to stay or leave the EU, how many of them would leave, and what would be the main reason for wanting to leave.

 

[C4Cat]

if each European Country had their own vote to stay or leave the EU, how many of them would leave, and what would be the main reason for wanting to leave.

Don't know how many countries would vote to leave, but short-sighted nationalist pride and petty patriotism are the main reasons for wanting to leave and would also be the main reason for ongoing conflict after leaving.