The Brexit Thread

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Not a totally unexpected result but it is a little surprising that the Tories got a landslide. Didn't predict that. I mean I know the polls did, but I still found it a little surprising.

What is interesting is if you compare what the right wing Telegraph says about the reasons why Labour lost and what the left wing Guardian says about the reason Labour lost.

They both agree that Corbyn is unpopular and Brexit was a factor, but what is interesting is that the Guardian is not willing to admit that people just f**king hate the ultra far left. Labour could have won it if they had someone other than Corbyn and they were not so far left. People don't want that s**t.

And you can see the elitism of the Left on full display, because they don't get it. How could someone POSSIBLY be against the far left? How is that even possible? Its like the idea doesn't even compute.

Or, at best, they acknowledge it with contempt. "Oh they just don't know any better. They are just working class and ignorant, of course they are fooled."

The irony is that polls showed that even right wing people don't trust Johnson - they think he's a liar. But better a right wing liar than someone who is honest about the far left - isn't that interesting?
 
Pitbull said:
You crying makes me happy too :D

Someone already pointed it out. It's day after Brexit all over again and it's GLORIOUS!
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Lol drink up my good friend, well earned. I only wanted to point out Rietie's hypocrisy, but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. A round of tears for everyone!
 
konfab said:
I would rather remember a PM that understands the concept and implements the principle of liberty.
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I suppose one day the UK may have such a PM. For now we're stuck with Boris Johnson and the Tories, who have a long history of being thoroughly opposed to liberty.

konfab said:
The closest thing that ever came to a peaceful socialist utopia was the Kibbutz and they all eventually turned into capitalistic communities.
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Many are market socialists. Typically those that aren't have degenerated into the pseudo-capitalism that is favoured by the wealthy elite.

When socialism fails, it will default to capitalism, when communism fail, it defaults to gulags.
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Both turn into the degenerate form of capitalism favoured by the wealthy elite.

South Africa will do the former when Eskom finally kicks the bucket.
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South Africa has never been socialist. Neither has the UK.
 
noxibox said:
I suppose one day the UK may have such a PM. For now we're stuck with Boris Johnson and the Tories, who have a long history of being thoroughly opposed to liberty.
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Like all known Tyrants, Boris carried out the anti-liberty policy of following the desire of a democratically decided decision...

noxibox said:
Many are market socialist
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That is an oxymoron.

noxibox said:
Typically those that aren't have degenerated into the pseudo-capitalism that is favoured by the wealthy elite.
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Like the welfare state..


noxibox said:
South Africa has never been socialist. Neither has the UK.
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The apartheid government was an almost perfect socialist government. The government planners had laws for everything under the sun. Right down to who you could marry, where you could go to the beach, where you can buy property, where you can work and so on.
https://cdn.mises.org/Road to Serfdom in Cartoons.pdf
 
Ancalagon said:
Not a totally unexpected result but it is a little surprising that the Tories got a landslide. Didn't predict that. I mean I know the polls did, but I still found it a little surprising.
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The vote percentages once again demonstrate the degenerate nature of the electoral system in use. 44% of the vote should never deliver more than 50% of the seats.

They both agree that Corbyn is unpopular and Brexit was a factor, but what is interesting is that the Guardian is not willing to admit that people just f**king hate the ultra far left. Labour could have won it if they had someone other than Corbyn and they were not so far left. People don't want that s**t.
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Besides the fact that Corbyn is absolutely ultra-far-left, and it demonstrates how distorted politics has become that someone who wants to fix a broken system is viewed as such, Labour did the right thing by actually standing for something instead of doing whatever was expedient (that was Tony Blair's "Labour" party). It is also clear that at least one third of the population do indeed want that sh*t.

Or, at best, they acknowledge it with contempt. "Oh they just don't know any better. They are just working class and ignorant, of course they are fooled."
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They're the people who would benefit the most from reforming the economy. So they're just screwing themselves if they chose to vote the protectors of the current system that designed to keep them in their place.

The irony is that polls showed that even right wing people don't trust Johnson - they think he's a liar. But better a right wing liar than someone who is honest about the far left - isn't that interesting?
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It is interesting that people are that gullible. That they've so bought into the propaganda that they'd choose the people who'll work to protect the elite rather than those who actually want to try to make something better. That's why New Labour were such a disappointment. They were just pretend Labour. They might as well have called themselves the Almost Tory party.

The UK could certainly benefit from a market economy as envisaged hundreds of years ago, but that'll never happen under the Tories, because it would bring them and their rich buddies down. It'll destroy old and wealthy companies. It will ultimately strip the rich of their excessive wealth and put an end to passing massive wealth from one generation to the next.
 
The Voice said:
And what were Labour and the LibDem's biggest drawing card? Their promise to stop Brexit if they won. They handed a second chance - effectively a second referendum - to everyone on a plate, and no-one took it. Sure, their die-hard supporters bought into it (they would), but they didn't win over very many Conservatives, or even neutrals. According to the election results, it was probably one of the things that cost them the most support.

People want democracy challenged - it keeps it healthy. They don't want democratically determined outcomes erased or undone. It was a terrible tactic by the opposition and it backfired spectacularly.

And if the election had nothing to do with Brexit, it wouldn't have taken up dozens of pages in the thread. This was the Brexit election.
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Not quite. You are selecting an MP and party for your constituency for 5 years. It's not only for Brexit, but for everything.

Even a lot of socialists on here couldn't stomach Corbyn.
 
The Voice said:
And what were Labour and the LibDem's biggest drawing card? Their promise to stop Brexit if they won. They handed a second chance - effectively a second referendum - to everyone on a plate, and no-one took it.
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From the percentages more people supported that than not. Including the SNP it's a clear lead over the Conservative Party. It's only the electoral system that warped it into a win for the Conservatives. Your no-one took it claim is quite patently bullsh*t.

People want democracy challenged - it keeps it healthy. They don't want democratically determined outcomes erased or undone. It was a terrible tactic by the opposition and it backfired spectacularly.
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Of course they want it erased. Every 5 years they go to the polls to erase a previous outcome. Lately it's been every 2 years.
 
noxibox said:
The vote percentages once again demonstrate the degenerate nature of the electoral system in use. 44% of the vote should never deliver more than 50% of the seats.
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Is it? That fact allows for a government that can get things done. It has enough power to actually do something. I guarantee you would not be complaining if Labour had got more than 50% of the seats with 45% of the vote.

Besides the fact that Corbyn is absolutely ultra-far-left, and it demonstrates how distorted politics has become that someone who wants to fix a broken system is viewed as such, Labour did the right thing by actually standing for something instead of doing whatever was expedient (that was Tony Blair's "Labour" party). It is also clear that at least one third of the population do indeed want that sh*t.


They're the people who would benefit the most from reforming the economy. So they're just screwing themselves if they chose to vote the protectors of the current system that designed to keep them in their place.
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This is all just condescension. You say that it is designed to keep them in their place, but even they don't agree. What makes you better informed? Remember a lot of the Tory voters would themselves be highly educated. The UK on the whole is much better educated than SA.

Regardless, it is the elitism and condescension that I'm talking about, and apparently my point went over your head because you make the exact same mistake - you think you know what is best for others.

It is interesting that people are that gullible. That they've so bought into the propaganda that they'd choose the people who'll work to protect the elite rather than those who actually want to try to make something better. That's why New Labour were such a disappointment. They were just pretend Labour. They might as well have called themselves the Almost Tory party.

The UK could certainly benefit from a market economy as envisaged hundreds of years ago, but that'll never happen under the Tories, because it would bring them and their rich buddies down. It'll destroy old and wealthy companies. It will ultimately strip the rich of their excessive wealth and put an end to passing massive wealth from one generation to the next.
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No, that's the point, they aren't gullible. They know that Johnson is a liar and voted him anyway. They trust Liar Johnson more than Red SJW Corbyn.

They haven't bought into the propaganda, because if they did, they wouldn't believe he is a liar, which they do.

The Leftist world cannot possibly imagine that some people might prefer the right - as proven by you.
 
Hamish McPanji said:
Even a lot of socialists on here couldn't stomach Corbyn.
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Well he's not really a socialist. He happened to propose that certain services be allowed to return to public control. Worst case was that it didn't work out. The way some people talk it was as though it would bring about the end of the world. Really people fear him because he was proposing to truly shake things up. Risky of course, but the only way to get all the cockroaches out in the open so they can be exterminated. Out of that fear people have chosen to instead continue having the boot stamping on their face.
 
Ancalagon said:
They haven't bought into the propaganda, because if they did, they wouldn't believe he is a liar, which they do.
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Hence they have bought into the right's propaganda. Portraying Corbyn as red is propaganda.
 
noxibox said:
Well he's not really a socialist. He happened to propose that certain services be allowed to return to public control. Worst case was that it didn't work out. The way some people talk it was as though it would bring about the end of the world. Really people fear him because he was proposing to truly shake things up. Risky of course, but the only way to get all the cockroaches out in the open so they can be exterminated. Out of that fear people have chosen to instead continue having the boot stamping on their face.
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Yes no biggy when major state run services collapse as we've seen in this country....
 
Ancalagon said:
Is it? That fact allows for a government that can get things done. It has enough power to actually do something. I guarantee you would not be complaining if Labour had got more than 50% of the seats with 45% of the vote..
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I complained about what an unfair system it was when UKIP didn't get their fair share a couple of elections ago. And I will complain about it now as well. It's a schit system, where typically 50-65% of the voters vote doesn't matter.
 
noxibox said:
Hence they have bought into the right's propaganda. Portraying Corbyn as red is propaganda.
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Tell that to all of my highly educated colleagues who said they wanted to wake up with "everything red". They wanted Labour and they want it red.
 
Hamish McPanji said:
Not quite. You are selecting an MP and party for your constituency for 5 years. It's not only for Brexit, but for everything.

Even a lot of socialists on here couldn't stomach Corbyn.
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I think nationalisation is sometimes necessary (NHS, rail networks, etc), but that privatisation is equally important (power, utilities, industry). I believe immigration should be tightly controlled (I had to jump through hoops to get into the UK - why should someone be given a free pass just because they showed up on a dinghy?). And I belong to a union. I'm a mixed bag of beliefs and opinions, but after all checks and balances are done, I'm centre-Right.

While I've never been 100% anti-Labour - there are things they stand for that I cannot ever condone, but others that I strongly agree with - Corbyn has, during his term as it's leader, pushed it so far to the Left it's unrecognisable and has alienated people who may just have been enticed otherwise. With him inevitably stepping down, it's probably time for New New Labour. After a few years, and a lot changes, they may become a viable option again. But not for the foreseeable future - Corbyn has simply done way too much damage to the party. It needs to move away from far Left to centre-Left before it will ever win another election.
 
Uncertainty is an economy killer, a majority is a good outcome for Britain overall. Now for them to get Brexit done, they have no one to blame but themselves if they cant.
 
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