The F-35 thread

Cray said:
You can't really compare though as non of the re-usable designs ever put men on the moon, completely different missions.
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True, the missions changed and you can't really compare. I was just trying to answer Unhappy's question in a fashion. The race to the moon was undoubtedly won by USA or more generally USA is still king in terms of space exploration, but these days it is all about getting humans and payloads into orbit and back again. In that game Russia is the undisputed king, at least until SpaceX gets to their level.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
True, the missions changed and you can't really compare. I was just trying to answer Unhappy's question in a fashion. The race to the moon was undoubtedly won by USA or more generally USA is still king in terms of space exploration, but these days it is all about getting humans and payloads into orbit and back again. In that game Russia is the undisputed king, at least until SpaceX gets to their level.
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Indeed - I also just finished "From Earth to the Moon", the amount of funds/expertise and man hours that where thrown at Apollo was unbelievable. Such an awesome project, pushing the limits of what is possible with such an impressive cast of characters.
 
Future air combat will most likely be more of an information, rather than a manoeuvrability contest, therefore the party with the best information wins. The F-35 is specifically designed to excel better in this revised form of combat e.g.;

Su 35= strong aircraft system incorporating some weak sensors/computers.
F 35= strong computer/sensor system wrapped in an air-frame. Which also happens to be designed deny the opposition information (i.e. stealth).

In other words the game will change, and the nerds will get their revenge against the top guns.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
That would be the N1 that was never really completed, after which Russia has never prioritized landing on the moon or mars so it's not surprising that they haven't developed anything for such a mission.
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Pretty much rings true for NASA and low earth orbit (which is so 1950s btw). Private companies are performing that duty now and NASA is focusing on asteroids and mars.

This is really off topic though, so i will stop.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
You should go have a long insightful conversation with every astronaut that ever died in a US space shuttle and explain to them how US technology is superior to the Russian Soyuz that is still operational and has killed far fewer people despite flying far more missions. They should appreciate just how privileged they were to have the funding and the access to die on "superior" hardware.
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The hardware was not the primary cause of failure in both accidents.

Primary causes were organisational culture issues - Decision making, ignoring facts and the limits of the hardware, prioritising budget over safety and so forth.

The hardware on the shuttles were fine. The two shuttles were pushed beyond their envelope, with the full consent of NASA.
 
Roman4604 said:
Future air combat will most likely be more of an information, rather than a manoeuvrability contest, therefore the party with the best information wins. The F-35 is specifically designed to excel better in this revised form of combat e.g.;

Su 35= strong aircraft system incorporating some weak sensors/computers.
F 35= strong computer/sensor system wrapped in an air-frame. Which also happens to be designed deny the opposition information (i.e. stealth).

In other words the game will change, and the nerds will get their revenge against the top guns.
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You can build and F18 Super Hornet that competes with F-35 in every category except stealth. I would recommend reading this one.

The bottom line is that while the F/A-18E/F will never be a stealth aircraft, it could offer a less costly 80 percent solution for the U.S. Navy’s requirements. Once developed to its full potential, the Advanced Super Hornet could perform most of the missions envisioned for the F-35C except penetrating strike — it would have to rely on stand-off weapons for that mission.
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Source
 
Roman4604 said:
Future air combat will most likely be more of an information, rather than a manoeuvrability contest, therefore the party with the best information wins. The F-35 is specifically designed to excel better in this revised form of combat e.g.;

Su 35= strong aircraft system incorporating some weak sensors/computers.
F 35= strong computer/sensor system wrapped in an air-frame. Which also happens to be designed deny the opposition information (i.e. stealth).

In other words the game will change, and the nerds will get their revenge against the top guns.
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Russian doctrine doesn't seem to be focused for an air war with the US air force.
I'm fairly sure they focus on anti-air, anti-ship and nuclear deterrents.

As for sensors Russia tends to employ A-50's in holding patterns and relay info to fighters. The new Tu-214R is SIGINT and ELINT so most likely assist the ground attack craft.
 
And then I find this one while doing some reading. The F-22 has a couple of serious weaknesses you can exploit.

For one, it’s blind in the infrared though several of its potential rivals have infrared-search-and-track sensors, effectively allowing them to scan for enemy warplanes’ heat signatures.
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The F-22 also lacks side-looking radars, which allow an aircraft to fire a missile that requires mid-course updates from the aircraft’s radar while continuing to provide tracking data after turning more than 90 degrees away from the path of the missile.
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Source
 
I like the part where they mention that they are adding an AN/AAS-42 targeting pod to the aggressor F-16's for a leg up against the stealth F-22 and F-35s. This is something you can't easily do with a F-22 or F35 due to its stealth first design.
 
Blu82 said:
You can build and F18 Super Hornet that competes with F-35 in every category except stealth. I would recommend reading this one.

Source
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Hehe. The F-18 SH Block II is a magnificent multirole fighter, I agree. But why choose a 1990s design when you can get something even better at much the same price, and with far better integration into theatre systems? The F-35 costs only marginally more (full-rate production cost $80-85m per jet) than the $78m FRPC per F-18E Super Hornet II, and is superior in pretty much every way, not just stealth (and stealth is a game-changer on its own, though you did say stealth aside). Though the F-18 SH II has AESA radar, all its pointy bits are carried externally, and that severely cramps range, max and sustained G, and maneuverability, not to speak of Radar Cross Section - it has to ditch these to engage an up-close enemy. Furthermore, the F-35 can supercruise with full complement of weapons and hit Mach 1.6 fully loaded, whereas in full combat config (external pods and weapons) the F-18A can't -- and neither can any other 4-plus-G jet from anywhere else including Russia, Europe, or China. The F-35 is a full 5G fighting aeroplane at half the price of an F-22.

As I said above, the USAF are already working on top-shelf tech to take the place of the F-22, currently the awesomeness champ only the USA can afford. The F-35 takes many features and applies them to a relatively cheap volume-production system that all three branches can use as their bulk "utility fighter" for the next ten years or so. The F-18, even with SH Block II rev, is yesterday's war machine. Not that the USA will stop using it or even F-15s and F-16s in certain potential situations for many years to come. It's not as if they have all their arrows the same and in one F-35 quivver. It's just one item in the kitbag. And it's absolutely awesome at the price. The whole F-35 program is expensive because they're buying so many of them.
 
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The one problem you have is that the full payload of a F-35 matched the payload on all the old aircraft when they dump preparing for a turning war. You now also have committed your F-35 to a turning war which is the last place it wants to be because it completely negates your stealth capability.

As it stands the F-35 is not a fully operational jet and therefor the per unit cost is a pipe dream since all the aircraft they have now will have to be retrofitted anyway increase their unit cost.

Current the latest block of the F-16, F-18 and F-15 can offer you 80% of the F-35. Is the F-35 worth it given then the trouble its development cycle is in? The gun does not have software, the helmet might kill you during ejection, the carrier version hurts the pilot during take-off, you need special fuel handling considerations because the F-35 does not like hot fuel, the radar needs to be rebooted in flight often.

And then next week we here how awesome the Israeli version is with their avionics similar to what they did with the F-15, F-16 and Bradley vehicles.
 
PS. Trump needs to get educated about the F-35, and doubtless will be. That old tweet was when he probably knew little more than what the unpatriotic press was retailing. It makes absolutely no sense to ditch the full 5G F-35 for a 1990s-designed 4G F-18 SH "Block III" non-stealth fighter that costs $80-85m per plane (the F-18 SH II is currently $78m per aerie without silicon+software upgrade).
 
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Blu82 said:
The one problem you have is that the full payload of a F-35 matched the payload on all the old aircraft when they dump preparing for a turning war. You now also have committed your F-35 to a turning war which is the last place it wants to be because it completely negates your stealth capability.

As it stands the F-35 is not a fully operational jet and therefor the per unit cost is a pipe dream since all the aircraft they have now will have to be retrofitted anyway increase their unit cost.

Current the latest block of the F-16, F-18 and F-15 can offer you 80% of the F-35. Is the F-35 worth it given then the trouble its development cycle is in? The gun does not have software, the helmet might kill you during ejection, the carrier version hurts the pilot during take-off, you need special fuel handling considerations because the F-35 does not like hot fuel, the radar needs to be rebooted in flight often.

And then next week we here how awesome the Israeli version is with their avionics similar to what they did with the F-15, F-16 and Bradley vehicles.
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All new fighters have teething troubles. Without exception. In the usual Pentagon way, they'll solve the issues at the double the price and time the Israelis could do it. But I hear Big Orange and Bibi are pals, so they might do a deal. ;)

No reason to ditch the F-35. What the unfinished plane already does is two steps ahead of what anyone else has. With one engine (the most powerful in any fighter), not two as F-18. Cheaper, easier maintenance in the field is designed in (you can change an F-35 engine nearly three times faster than on an F-18, for example). And good for the Marines and Navy in bulk.
 
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Blu82 said:
You can build and F18 Super Hornet that competes with F-35 in every category except stealth. I would recommend reading this one.

Source
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The pilots would disagree with you..

Mo; I was leading a four ship of F-35s on a strike against 4th Gen adversaries, F-16s and F/A-18s. We fought our way in, we mapped the target, found the target, dropped JDAMs on the target and turned around and fought our way out. All the targets got hit, nobody got detected, and all the adversaries died. I thought, yes, this works, very, very, very well. Never detected, nobody had any idea we were out there.
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Col. Chad “Mo” Vaughn, CO of VMFA-211. Prior to the F-35, Vaughn spent a couple 1000 hrs over 13 years in the F/A-18A-D Hornet, as well as time in the F-16A-B Fighting Falcon/Viper and F/A-18 Super Hornet at NAS Fallon.

BC; I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the God’s eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction. I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. Simultaneously I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit. All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional. In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle. I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there. All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.
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Col. Rich “BC” Rusnok, slated to become the CO of VMFA-121 in March 2017. Prior to the F-35, Price spent appx. 7 years flying the AV-8B Harrier II with additional time in the F/A-18 Hornet.

Guts; My first “aha” moment was a seemingly simple thing. I was executing a familiarization flight near MCAS Yuma. I was coming back to the airfield and I basically just turned the jet and pointed its nose at Yuma. Immediately the jet is providing me the information of all the traffic that is out there in the airspace. When I talk to approach for the first time they are telling me about the traffic that is out there that I already know about and I see it. I can tell who everybody is that he is talking about and the jet also saw traffic that ATC hadn’t seen yet and I asked about it. And I thought, “Holy Cow!” here I am coming back to the field from a simple familiarity mission and my jet is telling me everything about the operational environment I am about to go into. In this case, something very simple, the traffic pattern coming back there, but I didn’t have to do anything to have that level of SA [Situational Awareness]. I can start making decisions about what altitude I wanted to go to, if I wanted to turn left or right, speed up or slow down. There’s somebody coming up next to me, I want to get in front of them – or whatever. It is a very simple example, but I thought WOW this is amazing that I see everything and can do that.
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Col. John “Guts” Price, slated CO for VFMA-122 (2018). Prior to the F-35, Price spent appx. 1200 hrs and 10 years flying the AV-8B Harrier II, and has about 400 hrs in the F-35 over the past 3 years.

Sack; It was my first flight at Edwards AFB Jan ’16. I got in the airplane and started it up. I was still on the deck and there were apparently other F-35s airborne – I believe USAF, I was not aware. I was a single ship, just supposed to go out and get familiar flying the aircraft. As the displays came alive there were track files and the SA as to what everyone else was doing in the airspace, and I was still on the ground. I mean, I hadn’t even gotten my take-off clearance yet. I didn’t even know where it was coming from. It was coming from another F-35. The jet had started all the systems for me and the SA was there. That was a very eye opening moment for me.

The second one, took place when I came back from that flight. In a Hornet you would pull into the line and had a very methodical way in which you have to shut off the airplane and the systems otherwise you could damage something. So you have to follow a sequence, it is very methodical about which electronic system you shut off. In the F-35 you come back, you do a couple things then you just shut the engine off, and it does everything else for you. Sounds simple, even silly – but it is a quantum shift.
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George “Sack” Rowell, Commanding Officer (CO) of VMX-1 (Marine Operational Test & Evaluation Squadron). Prior to the F-35, Rowell spent appx. 3000 hours over 18 years of flying the F/A-18 Hornet. Previously the CO of VMFA(AW)-533


https://theaviationist.com/?p=40658


Air Force Lieutenant General Chris Bogdan, who runs the F-35 program for the Pentagon, said the jets' appearances at the UK air shows and other milestones were helping demonstrate to critics that the F-35 was more than "a paper airplane."

He said the jets' performance in exercises like Red Flag showed that onboard radar sensors and electronic warfare equipment would give them a huge edge in future wars. While one-third to one-half of other aircraft would routinely be "killed" during tough exercises, no F-35s had been downed, he said.
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"I can’t wait to get the airplane out to the Pacific," Lieutenant General Jon Davis, deputy commandant for aviation, told Reuters in an interview. "It’s tailor-made for that part of the world with its fifth generation capability and its expeditionary capabilities to land on a small ship or strip, and flow back and forth between those."

Davis says the F-35s are doing far better in combat exercises than expected, achieving so-called "kill ratios" of 24 to zero, and surviving every sort of simulated enemy attack.

"It is like watching a velociraptor going through. Everything in its path is killed," he told reporters.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airshow-britain-lockheed-fighter-idUSKCN0ZV287
 
Dave123 said:
Mo; I was leading a four ship of F-35s on a strike against 4th Gen adversaries, F-16s and F/A-18s. We fought our way in, we mapped the target, found the target, dropped JDAMs on the target and turned around and fought our way out. All the targets got hit, nobody got detected, and all the adversaries died. I thought, yes, this works, very, very, very well. Never detected, nobody had any idea we were out there.
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Maybe a fault with my reading comprehension...

I would have said "We sailed right in blah blah blah"
 
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