The Johan Booysen / Cato Manor Cops Thread

[MickeyD]

"Shoot To Kill: Inside a SAPS Death Squad"

Full story: http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2011/12/11/shoot-to-kill-inside-a-south-african-police-death-squad

Is the headline really justified?

Official figures from the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD) show in the past three years KwaZulu-Natal police killed 527 suspects during the commission of a suspected crime, an escape, an investigation or arrest - by far the highest in South Africa. The Cato Manor organised crime unit accounted for 45 deaths.

Less than 10% and then it is explained...

He said it was unfair to brand the unit a hit squad because of its high kill rate of suspects, given the high number of violent criminals arrested by members. "Cato Manor only investigates murder, armed robbery, ATM bombing, serial killing and serious rape cases," he said. "They made 437 arrests in the last two years. The facts are, they do arrest very violent people."

And who was one of the "sources"?

Last month Colonel Navin Madhoe - an officer in the provincial procurement office charged with trying to bribe Booysen with R2-million to drop a R60-million corruption case - gave the Hawks boss a memory stick, hard drive and two CDs containing hundreds of photographs showing what appear to be gruesome killings of suspects at the hands of the police.

The same guy that the Cato Manor chief stuck in jail for trying to bribe him!

While I'm not saying that the unit may be a bit on the maverick side, why the bias in the report? Why is there no perspective regarding the conditions in which the unit operates? Do the "suspects" stop and throw their weapons down and put their hands in the air in surrender? I seriously doubt it.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

Biased reporting FTL.

 

[zizo911]

Yep, this article does seem to be biased.

 

[MickeyD]

Biased reporting FTL.

Yep, this article does seem to be biased.

Again, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying these guys are angels and if they are found to have transgressed the Law, then they must be dealt with accordingly.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Biased reporting FTMFL....

I've dealt with that Police STation before... they're a bit rough, but the majority of those boys are good and just want to make things better.

 

[Kornhub]

This is Africa so stuff that,the police should have a right to shoot.

 

[blunomore]

Why do you say the report is biased???

 

[bruce_the_loon]

Why do you say the report is biased???

Probably because death squads are those secret police units that break into houses of people who disagree with the government, kill them and bury them in the veld? A death squad isn't a police unit dedicated to violent crime that happens to have a high rate of officer-involved shooting deaths when the violent criminals shoot back.

While I disagree that the media needs a government tribunal to control them, they certainly need a fully independent organization to punish journalists for openly lying and displaying bias in stories like this. If they want to accuse this unit of being a death squad, then they have to provide absolute proof that they execute without trial. And a suspect shooting where the criminal may or may not have had a gun isn't an execution.

 

[The Rat]

Probably because death squads are those secret police units that break into houses of people who disagree with the government, kill them and bury them in the veld? A death squad isn't a police unit dedicated to violent crime that happens to have a high rate of officer-involved shooting deaths when the violent criminals shoot back.

You are wrong. A death squad can also be defined as a secret police force or an organized vigilante group, which is what the article alludes to.

And a suspect shooting where the criminal may or may not have had a gun isn't an execution.

Wow, what would that be called then? If there is any truth in this:

A metallic silver BMW allegedly driven by Cato Manor officers in plain clothes drew up alongside them and, without any notifying lights or loud-hailer warnings, unleashed a barrage of assault-rifle fire on the SUV.

The BMW came to a screeching halt in front of the Hyundai, and a gold metallic Toyota Corolla pulled up behind it, blocking it.

Several members of the Cato Manor unit jumped out of the BMW and Corolla, and pumped a few more rounds into the Hyundai.

Then one of the policemen calmly discharged a pistol into the bushes, apparently to make it appear as if there had been a shoot-out. Another cop smashed the driver's window of the Hyundai with his rifle butt, evidently to make it look like shots had also been fired out of the vehicle, not just into it.

"They were unmarked cars, unmarked clothes, no warning, no flashing lights," said one witness. "There was very definitely no shoot-out - the only bullets went in from outside," said another. "There was no shoot-out. The okes pulled up alongside the Hyundai and just executed them."

Ndimande and Tembe now dead, the police calmly put on their police jackets and, a few seconds later, a convoy of marked police vans arrived.

Minutes later, Booysen himself landed in a police chopper.

This is the version of events related to the Sunday Times by witnesses too terrified to go to the police or even the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD). "If they can execute people in broad daylight like that, what would they do to us?" one asked.

Without their story, the official statement from the police - accepted by the ICD - is all that stands on the record.

The official SAPS version presents a completely different picture.

In a statement, Booysen says "police vehicles employing their sirens and appropriate flashing lights attempted to stop them, [but] they resisted and shot at police. The police returned fire, and [Ndimande and Tembe] were killed."

The image of Booysen landing victoriously on the scene was plastered all over newspapers the next day under the headline, "PAYBACK - Cops gun down this man and are told: Well done!".

Then as citizens we should be very afraid. We already have a terribly corrupt and criminal police force, the last thing I want is them running around with full Carte Blanche to do this! Think of potential witnesses which could be wiped out.

 

[Sly21C]

I don't agree with shooting to death of taxi bosses, but as for criminals and suspects? Shoot to kill FTW.........

 

[The Rat]

I don't agree with shooting to death of taxi bosses, but as for criminals and suspects? Shoot to kill FTW.........

Seriously, shoot to kill suspects?? My god. We truly are a degenerate society. For your sake I pray that one of your family members does not end up as a victim or statistic in all of this.

 

[Alestorm]

Seriously, shoot to kill suspects?? My god. We truly are a degenerate society. For your sake I pray that one of your family members does not end up as a victim or statistic in all of this.

Something that always bothers me is people taking a good ideal/practise, in this case police not being allowed to kill suspects, and over applying it. See, I of course agree that police should not have the right to shoot any suspects unless they are in danger. Except this case, where they are investigating people who are basically known police killers and seriously dangerous criminals (the only people they went after in this report are really the taxi bosses who murdered the cop investigating them, plus the men who murdered a lawyer and his entire family in cold blood).

This task team will never be involved in daily arrests, or anything besides very serious criminals that, honestly, I have no problem with being shot long before any 5 year court process that might see them go to jail after they murdered a police man and countless others. Plus whatever they get on with while on bail. These police are absolutely doing good work, simply given the type of criminals they are fighting. Trying to demonise them while giving almost no regard to the criminals they are faced with, and the conditions under which they work, feels very unfair to me.
There is nobody who could work in this unit or have to come into contact with these criminals who would feel the same way as the people who criticse these guys by saying silly stuff like "I pray that one of your family members does not end up as a victim or statistic in all of this". Unless your family member is a taxi boss murdering police, ATM bomber of the AK47 wielding variety or something similar, this simply won't happen. No prayers necessary.

The same does not apply for any normal police, but really in this case I support it fully. There is of course the danger that these few police feel that they can act with impunity in other matters.. but it's unfortunately something I have to support in this case.

Always been ticked off by this, in many other forms, it's not really meant to be personal against you, The Rat.

 

[The Rat]

Something that always bothers me is people taking a good ideal/practise, in this case police not being allowed to kill suspects, and over applying it. See, I of course agree that police should not have the right to shoot any suspects unless they are in danger. Except this case, where they are investigating people who are basically known police killers and seriously dangerous criminals (the only people they went after in this report are really the taxi bosses who murdered the cop investigating them, plus the men who murdered a lawyer and his entire family in cold blood).

This task team will never be involved in daily arrests, or anything besides very serious criminals that, honestly, I have no problem with being shot long before any 5 year court process that might see them go to jail after they murdered a police man and countless others. Plus whatever they get on with while on bail. These police are absolutely doing good work, simply given the type of criminals they are fighting. Trying to demonise them while giving almost no regard to the criminals they are faced with, and the conditions under which they work, feels very unfair to me.
There is nobody who could work in this unit or have to come into contact with these criminals who would feel the same way as the people who criticse these guys by saying silly stuff like "I pray that one of your family members does not end up as a victim or statistic in all of this". Unless your family member is a taxi boss murdering police, ATM bomber of the AK47 wielding variety or something similar, this simply won't happen. No prayers necessary.

The same does not apply for any normal police, but really in this case I support it fully. There is of course the danger that these few police feel that they can act with impunity in other matters.. but it's unfortunately something I have to support in this case.

Always been ticked off by this, in many other forms, it's not really meant to be personal against you, The Rat.

Our police are not mandated to execute people. I do not consider police killing people who have not had the opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law acceptable. The problem we have here is that people are so fed up with the crime situation that they have thrown common sense out of the window. What sort of precedence does this behavior, by police, set for the rest of society? Are we all entitled to kill all people we suspect of crimes now? You cannot have police using violence to curb violence. We already have brutal thugs in the police force, the last thing we need is to tell them that behaving like this is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Actually I believe a good law would be that if someone enters your house, then you're allowed to shoot him. If it is a woman then she can shoot him if he is in the yard.

We should really get rid of these gun legislation and allow everyone to defend himself. The Americans have a good saying about this: "it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by six".

 

[Alestorm]

Our police are not mandated to execute people. I do not consider police killing people who have not had the opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law acceptable. The problem we have here is that people are so fed up with the crime situation that they have thrown common sense out of the window. What sort of precedence does this behavior, by police, set for the rest of society? Are we all entitled to kill all people we suspect of crimes now? You cannot have police using violence to curb violence. We already have brutal thugs in the police force, the last thing we need is to tell them that behaving like this is perfectly acceptable.

I understand the argument for this completely by the way, my counter is simply that your last line is exactly what I'm saying won't, or should never, happen. The influence of this on normal police members is of course the problem like you say.

Bottom line for me: I think what the guys in this small, elite organised crime unit are doing is agreeable. It is on a small scale involving serious criminals who don't hesitate to kill policemen.. they simply need the freedom to fight these guys in the most effective way possible. But in the bigger picture I concede it is not a good practise anywhere in our police force. If the darn Sunday Times had kept quiet about it it would hardly be a problem, seeing as other police outside the circle wouldn't even know.

 

[The Rat]

I understand the argument for this completely by the way, my counter is simply that your last line is exactly what I'm saying won't, or should never, happen. The influence of this on normal police members is of course the problem like you say.

Bottom line for me: I think what the guys in this small, elite organised crime unit are doing is agreeable. It is on a small scale involving serious criminals who don't hesitate to kill policemen.. they simply need the freedom to fight these guys in the most effective way possible. But in the bigger picture I concede it is not a good practise anywhere in our police force. If the darn Sunday Times had kept quiet about it it would hardly be a problem, seeing as other police outside the circle wouldn't even know.

I am glad that the Sunday times has brought this to our attention. Groups like this could be used as a political tool, that is just not on when they start targeting individuals which would be the inevitable outcome.

 

[Alestorm]

I am glad that the Sunday times has brought this to our attention. Groups like this could be used as a political tool, that is just not on when they start targeting individuals which would be the inevitable outcome.

Yes yes, that was a joke.

Of course, you can always think of what can or may happen in the future, what is the actual effect this will have now? Say the unit now has to completely stop this "practise", you simply have a good number more very dangerous criminals on the street for longer periods of time. No doubt murdering real innocent people will happen over time. Strange that we'd instead be worried about some possible future murder of some people who are unlikely to be innocent at all.

It is of course not ideal, they should simply be arrested and kept without bail and a speedy trial. But that is not the reality, and this is far more effective for the types of organised crime they fight. Still it should not be the norm, and obviously it is only a small part of the work they do in most other cases. I believe this was really triggered because the taxi bosses they investigated murdered their colleagues. For which it is a more than fitting payback.

 

[The Rat]

Yes yes, that was a joke.

Of course, you can always think of what can or may happen in the future, what is the actual effect this will have now? Say the unit now has to completely stop this "practise", you simply have a good number more very dangerous criminals on the street for longer periods of time. No doubt murdering real innocent people will happen over time. Strange that we'd instead be worried about some possible future murder of some people who are unlikely to be innocent at all.

It is of course not ideal, they should simply be arrested and kept without bail and a speedy trial. But that is not the reality, and this is far more effective for the types of organised crime they fight.

Our police have to be pretty darn incompetent if the only way that they can effective deal with criminals is to execute them. That's just wrong.

 

[Picard]

Most killings happen around the fine line between self-defense and being a bit early with pulling the trigger because of a tense situation (regardless of the amount of training ... they are still human).

IMO they should be given a bit of breathing room.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Most killings happen around the fine line between self-defense and being a bit early with pulling the trigger because of a tense situation (regardless of the amount of training ... they are still human).

IMO they should be given a bit of breathing room.

Why don't they just arm our civilians, it would take a lot of weight of the police's shoulder.