The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Necuno]

... but you got to ask the question is why are these people doing this? what's the root cause of the conflict? why are they reacting in this way? and it is out of sheer frustration under the oppressive conditions they living in, way before Hamas was even in power... (just compare living conditions between Israel and Palestine, google pics if there are)

brings back memories of the old anc and then later on awb terrorism

 

[Xarog]

Are you honestly for real? Lieberman just called for an end to terrorism but he's advocating it? Do you not understand how your comments conflict?

Wow, this it utter rubbish.

Lemme bold the right part for you :

Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman's proposal for an ultimatum to the Palestinians to halt all terror activity or face wide-ranging attacks on commercial centers: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."[15] This led Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to respond that excessive military measures could lead to accusations of war crimes.[16]

Which part of that is NOT terrorism?

 

[adamr]

I agree with Tim, we're certainly going in circles here... At an anti-war protest this afternoon, I observed, amongst others, Christians, Jews and Muslims. It was heartening to hear the moulana standing next to me mentioning to a chap from the MDC that all he'd like to see is an end to the killing on both sides. A few minutes later a well-known local Jewish couple said the same thing when a reporter from a local radio station interviewed them. Not once did I observe anybody frothing at the mouth. Given this calibre of South African, I believe that there's hope for this country.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[semiautomatix]

this is wrong in my books ... killing 21 innocent people ... its just plain wrong ... BUT does not justify another wrong does it now? ... two wrongs don't make a right ...

But getting rid of the organisation responsible will make sure it doesn't happen again. Israel is protecting its people.

timgaul, if you oppress a people for such a long time, sooner or later they will react, and yes these reactions like suicide bombings i dont agree with at all, it does not help the situation just makes it worst, more innocents get killed! Neither do the firing of Hamas rockets into Israel, cause their intentions were not good either and i dont think they would have worried if those rockets did kill innocent people

Israel understood this and was attempting a way forward. Hamas became to impatient and ruined any possible chance at an future independent Palestine. They refused to recognise Israel, as such Israel need not recognise the state of Palestine.

I don't agree with the killings either, but in the same context this is a country who has been pushed to the edge of its patience. They have no other recourse if the Palestinian people are going to protect these terrorists. By attacking Israel they understood what they were inviting. If the Palestinians "outed" terrorists in their midst and refused to keep there may have been no conflict.

... but you got to ask the question is why are these people doing this? what's the root cause of the conflict? why are they reacting in this way? and it is out of sheer frustration under the oppressive conditions they living in, way before Hamas was even in power... (just compare living conditions between Israel and Palestine, google pics if there are)

Again, a plan was in process before Hamas came to power. And yes, it was slow - but this whole thing was built over 60 years it can't change over night!

Israel's response to wipe out Hamas seems an overkill (justified or not), you have such military prowess, certainly its intelligence arm, could send out some agents aka James Bond style and take out Hamas operatives, without the attacks currently being dealt out on the Gaza strip ... and the result: multitude of innocent lives being left dead ...

If Mossad were capable of carrying out such attacks they would have. Unfortunately it was not the case. In addition rocket launchers and such need to be destroyed. Yes at the expense of lives that I can't condone, either. But, as I see it, Israel has been left with little choice.

However that might not have been the plan but maybe the plan, it does seem now that it is, to systematically wipe out the Palestinian population and they testing those boundaries of just how far they can go without the International world crying, and now it looks like even if they do cry nothing can stop Israel in these attacks, not even an International signed document can not! ... intro: white phosphorus ...

Once again, there is no intention to "wipe of the Palestinian population". Hamas may claim they intend to wipe Israel off the face of the map, but not the IDF. The rest of your argument was very valid and you ruin it by ending propagandist nonsense like this. Pity :/

 

[Frankie]

well the international unbiased party must prove this ... its only fair ...



John Ging the UN director according to his investigations said no Hamas militia was in the area ... Israel says there were ... i say bring the international unbiased party to investigate ... and why does Israel refuse this?

So you suggest that this can only be determined by a neutral trust worthy party, but make statements that Israel targeted a school.

 

[semiautomatix]

Lemme bold the right part for you :

Which part of that is NOT terrorism?

The part where it is counter-terrorism. When you attack and kill terrorists, its the term used. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

 

[adamr]

Oh, where did you read that, pray tell?

The spokesmen for the Israeli president , Mark Regev

 

[Xarog]

The part where it is counter-terrorism. When you attack and kill terrorists, its the term used. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

Ok, you explain to me how business centres suddenly become legitimate military targets.

CONGRATULATIONS, you just justified the WTC attacks!!

 

[semiautomatix]

Ok, you explain to me how business centres suddenly become legitimate military targets.

CONGRATULATIONS, you just justified the WTC attacks!!

You do know who is in charge of the Palestinian Authority?

I'll give you a clue, it begins with an H and ends with a AMAS. Who are what, children? Yes, terrorists.

 

[Xarog]

I could easily counter that all, but since you decided to stoop to a low level, indicating your obvious lack of maturity, I'll disregard your arguments from now on.

Actually, you started that when you put your foot in your mouth by suggesting I read up on history. It's rather obvious that I'm far more intimately aware of the history surrounding Israel and its creation than you are.

Now, if you want to debate something without resorting to insults, be my guest, but my MO is to give better than I get, and if you start with the ad-hominems that makes you fair game for insults too.

 

[semiautomatix]

No, I think I'll skip the empty one-liners. If you have something to say, make a proper post.

I could easily counter that all, but since you decided to stoop to a low level, indicating your obvious lack of maturity, I'll disregard your arguments from now on.

 

[adamr]

Once again, there is no intention to "wipe of the Palestinian population". Hamas may claim they intend to wipe Israel off the face of the map, but not the IDF. The rest of your argument was very valid and you ruin it by ending propagandist nonsense like this. Pity :/

LOL! not propganda ... this is what it looks like

Q: With all of Israel's military power why choose the strategy they chose, they have military intelligence to certainly systematically find and destroy Hamas operatives without the approach they took (again justified or not). its like taking a shotgun to kill a fly actually a grenade ... makes you wonder, is it really their agenda to kill Hamas, or maybe more than just Hamas...

How many Hamas operatives have they killed thus far? dont see any stats on this?

Also once Hamas is destroyed, then what, will what's left of the Palestinian people be allowed to live like human beings? is this in their bigger plan?

Its sad that the people you oppress you now kill them, as if the oppression was not enough ...

 

[semiautomatix]

LOL! not propganda ... this is what it looks like

Q: With all of Israel's military power why choose the strategy they chose, they have military intelligence to certainly systematically find and destroy Hamas operatives without the approach they took (again justified or not). its like taking a shotgun to kill a fly actually a grenade ... makes you wonder, is it really their agenda to kill Hamas, or maybe more than just Hamas...

How many Hamas operatives have they killed thus far? dont see any stats on this?

Also once Hamas is destroyed, then what, will what's left of the Palestinian people be allowed to live like human beings? is this in their bigger plan?

Its sad that the people you oppress you now kill them, as if the oppression was not enough ...

I would continue to assume they merely intend to protect their citizens and soldiers. I see no problem with such an idea. Hamas doesn't care and would use their own citizens as human shields.

If the intention was to do the most damage to the populous of Palestine the West Bank would be a good starting area, not Gaza.

EDIT: most of the top Hamas brass seems to have been eliminated, successful campaign, I would say.

 

[Xarog]

You do know who is in charge of the Palestinian Authority?

I'll give you a guess, it begins with an H and ends with a AMAS.

Irrelevant.

And even if it was relevant. You did know that Ramallah is in the West Bank, right?

Fail.

 

[adamr]

Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman's proposal for an ultimatum to the Palestinians to halt all terror activity or face wide-ranging attacks on commercial centers: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."[15] This led Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to respond that excessive military measures could lead to accusations of war crimes.[16]

Xarog said: "Which part of that is NOT terrorism?" .... and i agree with him, yes which part of that aint terrorism?

 

[Frankie]

Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman's proposal for an ultimatum to the Palestinians to halt all terror activity or face wide-ranging attacks on commercial centers: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."[15] This led Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to respond that excessive military measures could lead to accusations of war crimes.[16]

Xarog said: "Which part of that is NOT terrorism?" .... and i agree with him, yes which part of that aint terrorism?

And we all know what "business" Hamas is in .

 

[semiautomatix]

Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman's proposal for an ultimatum to the Palestinians to halt all terror activity or face wide-ranging attacks on commercial centers: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."[15] This led Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to respond that excessive military measures could lead to accusations of war crimes.[16]

Xarog said: "Which part of that is NOT terrorism?" .... and i agree with him, yes which part of that aint terrorism?

This is a Hamas led government. They have the power to stop all this, yet they do nothing. Hamas knew the repercussion of their actions and went ahead with their attacks knowing full well it might incur the wrath of Israel.

Once again, the Palestinian Authority is controlled by Hamas, as such we can deduce they're harbouring terrorists. These terrorists conduct their activity from these buildings. This is unlike the WTC which housed civilians and foreign nationals only. If they turn these terrorists over to Israel then there will be no reason for any attack.

At least Israel was kind enough to give an ultimatum to Palestine, terrorist cells like Al-Qaeda and Hamas just attack without justification or request.

This is counter-terrorism and has been made necessary by Hamas actions in the past, I'm afraid. You reap what you sow.

Yes, I'm sorry its involved the loss of so many innocent lives, but Hamas needs to step up and take responsibility for causing the conflict.

 

[Xarog]

And we all know what "business" Hamas is in .

Congratulations, you also just declared the US WTC to be a legitimate military target.

Nice to see so many hypocrites on the pro-israeli side.

 

[Xarog]

This is a Hamas led government. They have the power to stop all this, yet they do nothing. Hamas knew the repercussion of their actions and went ahead with their attacks knowing full well it might incur the wrath of Israel.

Once again, the Palestinian Authority is controlled by Hamas, as such we can deduce they're harbouring terrorists. These terrorists conduct their activity from these buildings. This is unlike the WTC which housed civilians and foreign nationals only. If they turn these terrorists over to Israel then there will be no reason for any attack.

At least Israel was kind enough to give an ultimatum to Palestine, terrorist cells like Al-Qaeda and Hamas just attack without justification or request.

This is counter-terrorism and has been made necessary by Hamas actions in the past, I'm afraid. You reap what you sow.

Yes, I'm sorry its involved the loss of so many innocent lives, but Hamas needs to step up and take responsibility for causing the conflict.

Bull.

Hamas was not created in a vacuum. You seem to think that Israel magically occupied the palestinian territories after Hamas was founded. The truth is actually the opposite. The occupation created Hamas, and it is the occupation that needs to end in order for progress to be made. No reasonable government could ever concede to having foreign powers controlling its borders, as this is a FUNDAMENTAL requirement of sovereignty. Anything less is nothing more than being a puppet of a foreign power, i.e. being a colony/being occupied for eternity. Until the Palestinians receive a just and equitable offer for a VIABLE nationstate, all talks and all attempts to wipe out resistance movements are moot. With every Palestinian you kill, another 2 join the resistance. That is how it is and that is how it will be UNTIL such a time as reasonable and rational palestinians have A REAL opportunity to create a state of their own, and give real expression to their desires of self-determination.

As long as Israel stands in the way of it, like it has for the last 40 years, there will be violent resistance, by whatever means possible.

Edit : almost forgot, how exactly is it that Hamas is in charge of the PLO?

 

[BBSA]

And we all know what "business" Hamas is in .

Frankie, you will have to spell it out, otherwise they won't get it.