The Middle East Conflict Thread

[BBSA]

And whenever I say that, you ignore the fact entirely and then try to say that all arabs are the same, and that there is no such thing as a Palestinian.

I never said all Arabs are the same. I said the Arabs attacked Israel and they must take responsibility. Who you want to exclude under the Arabs is your problem.

You can keep on trying to twist my words but it is not going to change the facts.

 

[Xarog]

I never said all Arabs are the same. I said the Arabs attacked Israel and they must take responsibility. Who you want to exclude under the Arabs is your problem.

And then you tried to claim that the Palestinians are nothing more than arabs.

You can keep on trying to twist my words but it is not going to change the facts.

The facts are that the "palestinians" are all those people who lived in Mandate Palestine. After the colony they were living in was dissolved, they have never been a part of any nation. They bear no responsibility for the behaviour of other nations in war. Thus were never a part of any plan by other nations to invade Israel, and this makes them innocent. The occupation of their territory is entirely unwarranted.

Your claim about the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians being about the 1948 and 1967 wars is hereby refuted. You were wrong.

 

[BBSA]

And then you tried to claim that the Palestinians are nothing more than arabs.


The facts are that the "palestinians" are all those people who lived in Mandate Palestine. After the colony they were living in was dissolved, they have never been a part of any nation. They bear no responsibility for the behaviour of other nations in war. Thus were never a part of any plan by other nations to invade Israel, and this makes them innocent. The occupation of their territory is entirely unwarranted.

Your claim about the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians being about the 1948 and 1967 wars is hereby refuted. You were wrong.

The Zionist movement accepted the U.N. plan to divide the area historically referred to as "Palestine" into a Jewish and an Arab nation. The Arabs rejected the plan and immediately attacked Israel. The Arabs must take responsibility.

 

[Xarog]

The Zionist movement accepted the U.N. plan to divide the area historically referred to as "Palestine" into a Jewish and an Arab nation. The Arabs rejected the plan and immediately attacked Israel. The Arabs must take responsibility.

That's like saying Zimbabwe must take the blame if they attack us and we invade Mozambique.

Edit : If you're angry with your neighbour, do you kick your own dog?

Edit again : The last time I heard such shoddy logic was when people blamed Apartheid for crime.

 

[Glock26]

If the Mozambicans are allowing Zimbabwe logistical support, and providing them with arms and other support and allowing planning and training to happen on their soil..then yes.
Is that so complicated or do we have to "dumb it down" for you?
You keep separating the Palestinians from the other Arab nations, but that's funny..since they like to present a united front themselves, with common goals and aspirations.
And trying to say this isn't a religious war is also a little shortsighted.

G26

 

[BBSA]

That's like saying Zimbabwe must take the blame if we invade Mozambique.

Edit : If you're angry with your neighbour, do you kick your own dog?

So the Arab should not take responsibility for their actions?

 

[Xarog]

So the Arab should not take responsibility for their actions?

Only for that which they are responsible.

Israel is an independent nation and they chose to ethnically cleans the Palestinians and also to occupy the Occupied Territories.

The Arabs are not responsible for Israel's choices. Israel is responsible for Israel's choices. Israel could have chosen (1) to not ethnically cleanse people from it's territoris; (2) to ensure that the occupation was equitable as far as possible and assist those living in the Occupied Territories to form their own government instead of trying to pawn the territories off on Jordan.

Israel did not. Israel takes the blame for those failings.

If my neighbour throw stones at my house, and I get angry and shoot you dead, I can't go to trial and say, "But he threw stones at my house!"

Similarly, the attempt by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia to attack Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians. The treatment that the Israelis gave to the Palestinians falls on Israeli shoulders alone.

And even IF you wanted to blanket them all together, that does not excuse perpetual occupation. If you kick my houseplants over, I'm not entitled to live in your house forever and ever.

 

[Xarog]

If the Mozambicans are allowing Zimbabwe logistical support, and providing them with arms and other support and allowing planning and training to happen on their soil..then yes.

Um, please provide any evidence that the Palestinians were willingly providing logistical support for other nations at any point in time.

Is that so complicated or do we have to "dumb it down" for you?

Not at all. Unfortunately quite the reverse seems to be true.

P.S. you still didn't explain why you used a "marxist" whom you think is of questionable repute as a source to back up your claims.

You keep separating the Palestinians from the other Arab nations, but that's funny..since they like to present a united front themselves, with common goals and aspirations.

I like to see my family as having common goals and aspirations. But that doesn't mean that I expect the government to throw my brother in jail if I punch someone in the face.

And trying to say this isn't a religious war is also a little shortsighted.

It's a political conflict with religious undertones. The religious differences themselves are not the cause of the conflict, because otherwise there would be no Jews in Iran, nor would there be Muslims in Israel. Furthermore, before the arrival of Zionists (it's a political movement, not a religious one), the people in the region were living peacefully with one another.

Edit : It's worth noting that inter-Jew political conflict is also very high. Was it not for the "Palestinian problem", it is probable that the country would quickly become embroiled in a civil war of its own.

 

[Glock26]

Israel is an independent nation and they chose to ethnically cleans the Palestinians

Got yourself another cute little catch-phrase to use until that one is proven nonsense again and you move onto the next one? (cleanse btw)
Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know what ethnic cleansing is? Have you witnessed it? Were you in Bosnia or Rwanda or WW2 Germany?
Your little current casualty count of terrorists would be done in an hour!
Israel could "cleanse" the entire area in a day if they wanted. But quite obviously that is not even close to the intent.
Please resist the urge to use emotional and untrue statements. In ethnic cleansing, you don't warn the inhabitants beforehand where you are striking. You don't target specific leaders and you don't avoid civilian casualties where you can. If anything, it is Hamas who is intent on "ethnic cleansing" for wanting to wipe out an entire country and religion.
Your jibes are becoming very transparent and predictable. Very propaganda-like too. You are not part of the Hamas media machine are you?
PAGAD spokesman possibly? What's the link?

 

[freeek]

Bully! You forgot to mention that you will call a truce IF I solemnly promise not to gather any more stones and lob them over the wall, and that you are in any event not going to give my house back or even remove the wall because I might just decide to throw another stone someday...

Right now your (and mine) neighbours decide to stop this in justice, how can the jhb municipality decide to give me the land when we live in cape town. The neighbours go in one by one instead of united and are shocked to find that I am equipped with state of the art shot guns from my big bro JHB.

Many years later.... everyone has forgot my evil begins ....

I now have grand children and need more space I need my yard back (yes it is now my yard back) I come up with a cunning idea, i stop the water supply to my yard and wait for the stones!

Two weeks later .... a dozen stones get thrown over the wall.....

Now i can start the tactic to take over of the yard and get rid of the some stone throwers...


In all reality its sad, that one can even acknowledge Israel. They are a terrorist nation who carried out terrorist tactics and continue to do them.

The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel The state of Israel


If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
Adolf Hitler

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

A lot of Hitler fans in this thread it seems ........ that's disgusting.

 

[Glock26]

*sigh*

Kids.

 

[Xarog]

Got yourself another cute little catch-phrase to use until that one is proven nonsense again and you move onto the next one? (cleanse btw)

Wow, aren't you smart. Why don't you look at the hundred other times where I did not actually typo the word and did infact spell it as "cleanse"?

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Oh, but I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Do you know what ethnic cleansing is?

Forced removal/expulsion of civilians by a state or regional authority.

Have you witnessed it? Were you in Bosnia or Rwanda or WW2 Germany?

I don't need to witness it to judge that historical reports are accurate in describing the event. And scale is unfortunately not a criterion by which the act is judged.

Your little current casualty count of terrorists would be done in an hour!

Um, expelled Palestinians sits at about 1 million people. That's quite on par with other atrocities.

Israel could "cleanse" the entire area in a day if they wanted. But quite obviously that is not even close to the intent.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? ...

Please resist the urge to use emotional and untrue statements. In ethnic cleansing, you don't warn the inhabitants beforehand where you are striking. You don't target specific leaders and you don't avoid civilian casualties where you can. If anything, it is Hamas who is intent on "ethnic cleansing" for wanting to wipe out an entire country and religion.

... Yup, definitely don't know what you're talking about. The ethnic cleansing refers to events that took place in 1947-48.

Your jibes are becoming very transparent and predictable. Very propaganda-like too. You are not part of the Hamas media machine are you?
PAGAD spokesman possibly? What's the link?

Lol. Your claims about me being a spokesman for anyone is rather hollow when you can't even follow what I've actually been saying. And furthermore you cite people whom you claim are "Marxist Crackpot"s in order to justify your position, and you expect to be taken seriously when you refuse to fess up to your mistakes?

 

[BBSA]

.

Israel is an independent nation and they chose to ethnically cleans the Palestinians and also to occupy the Occupied Territories.

That is just nonsense and propaganda you choose to believe.

From Wiki:

Israel opened up part of its archives in the 1980s for investigation by historians. This coincided with the emergence of various Israeli historians, called New Historians, who favored a more critical analysis of Israel's history. The most famous scholar of this group, Benny Morris, concludes that Jewish military attacks were the main direct cause of the exodus, followed by Arab fear due to the fall of a nearby town, Arab fear of impending attack, and expulsions. The traditional Israeli version was replaced by a new version stating that the exodus was caused by neither Israeli nor Arab policies, but rather was a by-product of the 1948 Arab Israeli War

The 1967 Palestinian exodus refers to the flight of around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians out of the territories occupied by Israel during and in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Their exodus was followed by the demolition of many Palestinian villages, including Imwas, Yalo, and Beit Nuba, Surit, Beit Awwa, Beit Mirsem, Shuyukh, Jiftlik, Agarith and Huseirat.The Special Committee heard allegations of the destruction of over 400 Arab villages, but no evidence in corroboration was furnished to the Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.

 

[Xarog]

That is just nonsense and propaganda you choose to believe.

Wrong.

From Wiki:

Which page?

Also, here's bolding a different part :

Israel opened up part of its archives in the 1980s for investigation by historians. This coincided with the emergence of various Israeli historians, called New Historians, who favored a more critical analysis of Israel's history. The most famous scholar of this group, Benny Morris, concludes that Jewish military attacks were the main direct cause of the exodus, followed by Arab fear due to the fall of a nearby town, Arab fear of impending attack, and expulsions. The traditional Israeli version was replaced by a new version stating that the exodus was caused by neither Israeli nor Arab policies, but rather was a by-product of the 1948 Arab Israeli War

Main direct cause = attacks by Jewish military attacks. Your own source refutes your claim!!

The 1967 Palestinian exodus refers to the flight of around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians out of the territories occupied by Israel during and in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Their exodus was followed by the demolition of many Palestinian villages, including Imwas, Yalo, and Beit Nuba, Surit, Beit Awwa, Beit Mirsem, Shuyukh, Jiftlik, Agarith and Huseirat.The Special Committee heard allegations of the destruction of over 400 Arab villages, but no evidence in corroboration was furnished to the Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.

Wtf do you think destruction of villages is? An afternoon picnic!?!? And that's totally ignoring the events that took place in 1948 when 700 000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed!

Edit : And who was running this Special Comittee? It wouldn't be the Israelis, would it? It wouldn't be that the Israelis never bothered to investigate their own role in causing the exodus, would it??

 

[daveza]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292923634&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Officers cloaked to hamper lawsuits
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The IDF has decided not to release the names and pictures of battalion and brigade commanders who participated in Operation Cast Lead, Army Radio reported Wednesday morning.

Slideshow: Pictures of the week The decision was made in anticipation that international war crimes lawsuits would be filed against IDF officers, who could face prosecution when traveling overseas.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has ordered the IDF to set up a team of intelligence and legal experts to collect evidence related to IDF operations in the Gaza Strip, that could be used to defend military commanders against future lawsuits.

Called an "Incrimination Team," the group of experts has already received all of the footage filmed by IDF Combat Camera teams deployed inside the Gaza Strip, to review and decipher. All footage taken by Combat Camera soldiers is first given to brigade intelligence officers who study it for intelligence information.

The decision to set up the team was made as part of IDF preparations for a wave of international lawsuits related to Operation Cast Lead, which Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz warned last week would be filed against soldiers following the operation.

Thus the reason for allowing no journalists into Gaza during the conflict ?

I note they don't deny the possibility of war-crimes having occurred.

 

[Glock26]

Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.

OOH. You mean like the publicly stated (and constantly practiced) intention of the surrounding Arab world to systematically and completely wipe out the nation of Israel?
Yeah..that fits better.
Not quite sure you can label Israel fighting for their survival against a vast majority the same thing.

Oh..I am sure you can though. Anything to make your pointless. Whatever.

 

[Glock26]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292923634&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Thus the reason for allowing no journalists into Gaza during the conflict ?
I note they don't deny the possibility of war-crimes having occurred.

Poor Palestinians. Didn't commit any atrocities at all!
Wonder how Israeli civilians go about pursuing lawsuits against bombers who blew up nightclubs and bars?
Must be a way..surely!

 

[BBSA]

Wtf do you think destruction of villages is?

The destruction of villages is NOT Ethnic cleansing.

 

[daveza]

A little ot but don't want to start another Israel thread - use it for light relief.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659789,00.html

According to Shas' leader, the IDF itself has defined homosexuality as something that warrants discharge on mental grounds. "We harbor no hate towards these people, God forbid. On the contrary: I view them as any other person in Israel and genuinely wish them good health. I also hear of people who underwent treatment and recovered."

Israel can cure homosexuality !