The Middle East Conflict Thread

*Yawns* Ilan Pappe... still relying on Pro-Hamas bigots to defend your arguments.


Btw..it's to. Not do. They aren't that close on the keyboard. I know it's early. But please try and pay attention.

That is all.

......
 
BBSA said:
Exactly one big family.
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And you just admitted to blaming Israeli citizens for the behaviour of other nations. Nice going. :rolleyes:

Garyvdh said:
Actually, you lost everybody's respect when you just start dismissing everything out of hand by starting every sentence with "irrelevant" :rolleyes:
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Riiiight. :rolleyes:

I've only dismissed things that are truly irrelevant. If they are relevant you should be quite capable of explaining why they are relevant (like I did when I explained why they were irrelevant). However, instead of doing that, you've instead chosen to whine and moan and disrupt the thread.

Now, maybe you can claim that your and BBSA's sensitivities have been offended, but honestly, I don't think I'd feel comfortable with your respect in the first place. Secondly, you only speak for yourself, so don't make BS remarks about "everybody", because you just make yourself look foolish.
 
Glock26 said:
*Yawns* Ilan Pappe... still relying on Pro-Hamas bigots to defend your arguments.
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Ilan Pappe may have an anti Israel agenda, Benny Morris was once in favour of the Arabs but changed later. The point is to research the evidence brought forward and find out the truth.
 
Aqua_lung said:
Benny Morris was once in favour of the Arabs but changed later. The point is to research the evidence brought forward and find out the truth.
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Yes, Benny Morris researched the evidence brought forward and found out the truth?

ROTFL.

G26
 
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Glock26 said:
Yes, Benny Morris researched the evidence brought forward and found out the truth.

ROTFL.

G26
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If you read the wikipedia link, Benny has committed frauds and ignored evidence that counters his conclusions.

ROTFL? sure it just makes you look like an idiot.
 
Glock26 said:
Yes, Benny Morris researched the evidence brought forward and found out the truth.

ROTFL.

G26
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Even Benny admits there were expulsions and that there was ethnic cleansing.

So what exactly is your argument again?
 
Before that..
JK8..why are you still using that ridiculous signature line when it has been proven that it is false? isn't that lying propaganda?
In a letter to his son in 1937, David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, wrote:

We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place. All our aspiration is built on the assumption - proven throughout all our activity - that there is enough room for ourselves and the Arabs in Palestine.

In The Birth, however, Morris claims Ben-Gurion penned the opposite: "We must expel Arabs and take their place." Curiously, in his Hebrew-language writings, Morris rendered Ben-Gurion's words accurately, perhaps knowing that readers could check the original source.
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wikpedia said:
Second Phase of the Exodus, April 1948 - June 1948

Benny Morris maintains that from April 1948 Ben-Gurion was a “transferist”; although Ben-Gurion gave no explicit orders, Ben-Gurion projected a “message of transfer", and that a “consensus of transfer” was created.". Also Benny Morris upholds that Ben-Gurion was correct in expelling the “Arab” population of Palestine on the grounds that “Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."[48] Benny Morris puts the main causes for the Palestinian exodus as:-

"Above all let me reiterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumour of atrocities - and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return."[49]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
 
You are missing the point completely. Let's go back to your pointless again.
You mentioned Pappe as a source of info.
I pointed out that he has been discredited and his "works" are biased and (to use your own lovely saying)..irrellevant.
Benny did not write that disclaimer or Pappe. He is only a brief quote in it. The rest has nothing to do with him.
So..back to Pappe. Why would reading anything by someone who admits his beliefs skew his research be beneficial to anyone?

Huh?

G26
 
Glock26 said:
You are missing the point completely. Let's go back to your pointless again.
You mentioned Pappe as a source of info.
I pointed out that he has been discredited and his "works" are biased and (to use your own lovely saying)..irrellevant.
Benny did not write that disclaimer or Pappe. He is only a brief quote in it. The rest has nothing to do with him.
So..back to Pappe. Why would reading anything by someone who admits his beliefs skew his research be beneficial to anyone?

Huh?

G26
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Peppe was sourced as a claim to prove that there had indeed been ethnic cleansing. You are trying to discredit his works while completely ignoring that many scholars (even the people you source as his detractors) agree at least to some degree about the claims Peppe made.

So again, even if Peppe is the biggest lying turd on the planet, and someone who has an extreme bias... is he wrong?

If he is right regarding the matter that he was quoted, his character and his bias do not matter.
 
BBSA said:
In your twisted mind maybe, but not in reality.
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You say all arabs are to blame for what happened, because they are all one nation.

I point out that the Israeli arabs are also arabs. You say "exactly". Now how else could one possibly interpret that?

The point to this whole excercise was to make you realise that you are painting people with the same brush, even though their individual behaviour could be vastly different. You wish to quote one person and claim that all the arabs see it that way.

How is that different from pointing to one particular black murderer and using him to claim that all blacks are murderers? You can't, and you're guilty of racism if you try.
 
Oh, and of Benny Morris (who I and many others think is a Marxist crackpot, but you seem to have faith in...)
In Morris's view, shared by many Israelis, the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was responsible for the collapse of U.S.-brokered peace talks at the time and the violence that followed.

Then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat most of the West Bank, Gaza and parts of East Jerusalem. But that left unresolved the demand of refugees to return to their homes, a problem that is "the most unsolvable because it is wrapped up in identity," Morris believes.

"My feeling during the first intifada was that they wanted us off their backs," he says of the Palestinians. "My sense of the second intifada was that they both wanted us off their backs and they wanted to destroy us. Something had changed within the Palestinians."

Morris's research had long suggested to him that the Arabs would never accept a Jewish state in Palestine. The second uprising, spearheaded by the radical Islamic movement Hamas, confirmed his view that "Arab rejectionism has always been very deep and very religious."
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You seem to conveniently (and this is the heart of the whole matter) ignore the fact that the Arabs have vast areas of the Middle East. In fact, pretty much the whole of the Middle east. Israel has a tiny tiny portion, and no-where to retreat to. They are fighting for existence, whereas the Arabs are fighting for the entire region. Who is doing the ethnic cleansing of the whole region? You see the Arab countries setting up areas within themselves put aside for Christians and Jews etc? You need to rethink your concept of "ethnic cleansing" Israel has Arab citizens who have more rights than they do in any of the surrounding Arab countries. They are happy to incorporate Arabs into their population. Show me an Arab country with the same record? They admit they want the extermination of the Jews and Israel. I haven't seen Israel having a problem living surrounded by Egypt and Jordan and all the others around them. Funny huh?

Hmmm.
 
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Ironically this thread so aptly sums up the Middle East conflict, to and frowing with no progress what so ever..
 
Glock26 said:
Oh, and of Benny Morris (who I and many others think is a Marxist crackpot, but you seem to have faith in...)
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So why'd you bring him up as a credible source to repudiate Peppe's claims? :rolleyes:

You seem to conveniently (and this is the heart of the whole matter) ignore the fact that the Arabs have vast areas of the Middle East.
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It's not conveniently ignored, it is entirely irrelevant. It wouldn't matter if the Arabs were in charge of the rest of the world; you simply do not have the right to ethnicly cleanse anyone. You do not have the right to deprive individual human beings of their homes. You do not have the right to deprive human beings of their right to self-determination. Whenever you do, people are going to react violently. This is exactly what has happened to the Palsestinians, and they waited 20 years before they actually started taking matters into their own hands. All things considered, I'd say they were damned patient.

In fact, pretty much the whole of the Middle east. Israel has a tiny tiny portion, and no-where to retreat to.
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Irrelevant.

They are fighting for existence, whereas the Arabs are fighting for the entire region.
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Maybe they should have thought of that when they decided to grab areas which were predominantly inhabited by arabs.

Who is doing the ethnic cleansing of the whole region? You see the Arab countries setting up areas within themselves put aside for Christians and Jews etc?
Hmmm.
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Actually, Iran still has a small jewish population (around 25 000), despite the fact that Israel has tried to pay them off to leave Iran. (Rather embarrassing for Israel's claims that Iran wants to wipe out all the Jews when there's still several Iranian Jews living in safety.)

Furthermore, before the creation of Israel, and before the european ashkenazi jews decided to settle a land their ancestors had never even been to (they converted around 600 AD), sephardic jews and arabs were living alongside each other pretty much in peace. There wasn't a great amount of religious or ethnic tension.

But the critical factor here is that no one has a right to opress anyone else. No one has the right to say "This state is now [x], and everyone who isn't [x] is no longer welcome here." It wasn't right of the Nats to try to turn South Africa into a white state, and it wouldn't be right if the ANC tried to turn South Africa into a black state. Niether is it right for a Jewish state to exist, or an Islamic theocracy. Those who were ethnically cleansed have a reasonable expectation to compensation (same goes for ethnically cleansed Jews). It doesn't matter who lives where; if someone came and chased you out of your home, they comitted a crime against you. It is wholly unreasonable for anyone to expect that someone else must now foot the bill.

So the Palestinians have every right to be more than a little annoyed with Israel's behaviour. It doesn't matter if they're Christians or Jews or Muslims (yes, there are Palestinian Jews). Their rights have been trampled on, and until it is recognised that they have been harmed, this conflict will never go away.
 
BBSA said:
That is the conclusion you have made.

Here is what I'm saying: All the Arabs who attacked Israel must take responsibility.
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And I've pointed out that the Palestinians were NOT involved in either the 1948 or 1967 wars, and that in both cases they had people occupying them and treating them like dirt.

In other words, they were never responsible and so they have no responsibility to answer for, and the occupation of their lands has always been unjust, and the current conflict is a reaction to that injust action.

And whenever I say that, you ignore the fact entirely and then try to say that all arabs are the same, and that there is no such thing as a Palestinian.
 
There is only one solution to solve this conflict, the final solution...

Both sides need to grow up.
 
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