The Middle East Conflict Thread

Garyvdh said:
No, but then the Palestinian people are not being targeted by the Israelis.... only Hamas is. :rolleyes:
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1300 dead, alot more injured with the use of white phosphorous, how many Hamas militants were killed?
 
Garyvdh said:
No, but then the Palestinian people are not being targeted by the Israelis.... only Hamas is. :rolleyes:
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So in other words you have no justification for claiming that the Palestinians must "swallow their medicine".

Furthermore, you are dead wrong about Palestinians not being targeted by the Israelis. :

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=6571

This consensus has enabled Prime Minister Sharon’s government to maintain that its only option is to wage an unrelenting war against the Palestinians that, in the words of the Israeli Defense Force’s chief of staff, Lieutenant General Moshe Ya’alon, will “sear deep into the consciousness of Palestinians that they are a defeated people” before any political process can begin.
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http://www.infowar-monitor.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1146

Last year, Israeli Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon spoke of the need to "sear into the consciousness of the Palestinians" that resistance to the Israeli occupation was futile and would earn them no achievements.
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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\02\03\story_3-2-2009_pg3_6

The things said during the war by politicians and officers make it clear that the plan had at least two aims, which might be considered war crimes: (1) To cause widespread killing and destruction, in order to “fix a price tag”, “to burn into their consciousness”, “to reinforce deterrence”, and most of all — to get the population to rise up against Hamas and overthrow their government. Clearly this affects mainly the civilian population.
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Do I really need to find more sources to prove the point? Israeli actions time and again are futile attempts to get the civilian population to 'change their minds' about who leads them and who they support. Israel tried the same futile tactic against Lebanese in the 2006 invasion.

Engaging in belligerent behaviour against a civilian population for political purposes is the textbook definition of terrorism.
 
Xarog said:
So in other words you have no justification for claiming that the Palestinians must "swallow their medicine".
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Please show me where I said anything about the "Palestinians swallowing their medicine"??? :confused: I was talking about those who specifically voted for Hamas.
Xarog said:
Furthermore, you are dead wrong about Palestinians not being targeted by the Israelis. :
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=6571
http://www.infowar-monitor.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1146
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\02\03\story_3-2-2009_pg3_6
Do I really need to find more sources to prove the point? Israeli actions time and again are futile attempts to get the civilian population to 'change their minds' about who leads them and who they support. Israel tried the same futile tactic against Lebanese in the 2006 invasion.
Engaging in belligerent behaviour against a civilian population for political purposes is the textbook definition of terrorism.
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Do you have any direct quotes? Or are they all second-hand hearsay?
 
Xarog said:
Do I really need to find more sources to prove the point? Israeli actions time and again are futile attempts to get the civilian population to 'change their minds' about who leads them and who they support. Israel tried the same futile tactic against Lebanese in the 2006 invasion.

Engaging in belligerent behaviour against a civilian population for political purposes is the textbook definition of terrorism.
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+1
Which has only made this world a dangerous place.
 
Garyvdh said:
Please show me where I said anything about the "Palestinians swallowing their medicine"??? :confused: I was talking about those who specifically voted for Hamas.
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Because you seem to think it's OK to punish people for voting for Hamas in a general context. Nowhere in any of your previous posts have you drawn a distinction between civilians who did vote for hamas, and those who did not vote for hamas.

Do you have any direct quotes? Or are they all second-hand hearsay?
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Direct quotes would be in Hebrew. You'll have to do with translations, I'm afraid.
 
Xarog has this crazy notion that if you take away their "reason" for voting for Hamas then Hamas will just disappear quietly into fresh air lol :rolleyes:. Like taking away the reason for people voting for the ANC and Zanu PF made them disappear. Oh wait :o

Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gaza

The comments come after a string of reports of human rights violations committed by Palestinians against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli war on Gaza.

The Undersecretary of the caretaker government’s Ministry of Prisoners Affairs Ziyad Abu Ein spoke out against the rights violations and accused Hamas of “terrorism,” and said they were preventing media outlets in Gaza report on their crimes.

“Our people badly need a free press capable of protecting the truth,” he said, noting that the truth was all that could counter the “terrorist procedures against patriotic Palestinians.”

Abu Ein also published a list of names and neighborhoods of those in Gaza who were killed, maimed, beaten or tortured during the Israeli war on Gaza.

He encouraged aid organizations inside Gaza to check the list and contact those who have given testimony and prove the truth of the list of 181 names. Abu Ein also called on the Arab League to send a fact-finding mission to Gaza and uncover the reality behind the shocking information.

Abu Ein said he held the current caretaker government responsible for initiating the proper legal procedures against those responsible for the crimes and anyone who gave the directives for murder or torture. These people must be brought to justice in front of Palestinians and the Arab world, he said.

The list provided from Abu Ein is as follows:

Names and locations of those executed by Palestinians :
~the list includes jobs or affiliations as appropriate~
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But that's fine as long as it's not the evil juice......
 
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Xarog said:
Because you seem to think it's OK to punish people for voting for Hamas in a general context. Nowhere in any of your previous posts have you drawn a distinction between civilians who did vote for hamas, and those who did not vote for hamas.
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So you are just assuming that is what I meant? :rolleyes:

I ask you again... please show me where I actually said that.
 
For those who are interested

Center for Strategic and International studies: the Gaza war: a strategic analysis
http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/090202_gaza_war.pdf

To my knowledge, this is the first comprehensive (96 pages) and non-partisan study of the military and strategic implication of the recent war. A must-read if your interest lies beyond those petty internet spats
 
R/SGT said:
For those who are interested

Center for Strategic and International studies: the Gaza war: a strategic analysis
http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/090202_gaza_war.pdf

To my knowledge, this is the first comprehensive (96 pages) and non-partisan study of the military and strategic implication of the recent war. A must-read if your interest lies beyond those petty internet spats
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Please give us a summary:)
 
Here you go

Executive Summary:

One can argue whether the fighting between Israel and Hamas in Gaza is a ―war, or should be seen as just one more tragic surge in violence in the decades-long struggle between Israel and the Palestinians.

It is, however, the first major armed struggle between Israel and Hamas, as distinguished between Israel and the PLO and Fatah. It also is a case study in how Israeli capabilities have changed since the fighting with Hezbollah in 2006, and in the nature of asymmetric war between states and non-state actors.

This report examines the war in terms of the lessons of the fighting, what it says about the changes in Israeli tactics and capabilities and the broader lessons it may provide for asymmetric warfare.

It analyzes the fighting on the basis of briefings in Israeli during and immediately after the fighting made possible by a visit sponsored by Project Interchange, and using day-to-day reporting issued by the Israeli Defense Spokesman.

The analysis reveals impressive improvements in the readiness and capability of the Israeli Defense Forces since the fighting against the Hezbollah in 2006. It also indicates that Israel did not violate the laws of war.

It did deliberately use decisive force to enhance regional deterrence and demonstrate that it had restored its military edge. These, however, are legitimate military objectives in spite of their very real humanitarian costs. Hamas has only provided a few details on its view of the fighting, other than ideological and propaganda statements.

Any military report has to be written largely from an Israeli perspective; although it is already clear that the IDF did not succeed in deterring Hamas from new rocket strike on Israel or made definitive changes in the political and military situation in Gaza. In fact, the post conflict situation looks strikingly like the situation before the fighting began. T

he impact of the ―Gaza War on the Arab world and Israel‘s neighbors is far clearer. The IDF‘s success may have enhanced some aspects of Israel‘s military ―edge and ability to deter, but it also did much to provoke. Reactions built on the anger caused by both the steadily deteriorating situation of the Palestinians and the impact of civilian casualties and collateral damage – not only in the fighting in Gaza but in Lebanon in 2006. The end result is that it is far from certain that Israel‘s tactical successes achieved significant strategic and grand strategic benefits. In practice, they seem to have had only a marginal impact on Hamas, and their benefits may well have been offset by the mid and long-term strategic costs of the operation in terms of Arab and other regional reactions. Such conclusions are necessarily uncertain, but Israel does not seem to have been properly prepared for the political dimensions of war, or to have had any clear plan and cohesive leadership for achieving conflict termination. Moreover, it seems to have approached the fighting, and the Arab world, with from a strategic perspective that will increase instability in the region and ultimately weaken Israel‘s security.
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Great thanks R/SGT.

Unfortunately for Israel taking any defensive action against Hamas will lead to a deterioration of relations with the Arab world at large. It's inevitable
 
Garyvdh said:
So you are just assuming that is what I meant? :rolleyes:
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No, I'm saying your words imply such a conclusion.

Alan said:
Xarog has this crazy notion that if you take away their "reason" for voting for Hamas then Hamas will just disappear quietly into fresh air lol :rolleyes:. Like taking away the reason for people voting for the ANC and Zanu PF made them disappear. Oh wait :o
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No, that's just your straw man interpretation of my argument, because you can't criticise the merits of what I actually say.

But to put it into dumbspeak so you can get your foot out of your mouth : Trying to remove or disband Hamas without dealing with the Israeli Occupation is futile. Any attempts to address the existence of violent organisations within Palestinian society can only be done after Palestinian basic human rights are recognised and respected.
 
Xarog said:
But to put it into dumbspeak so you can get your foot out of your mouth : Trying to remove or disband Hamas without dealing with the Israeli Occupation is futile. Any attempts to address the existence of violent organisations within Palestinian society can only be done after Palestinian basic human rights are recognised and respected.
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Yeah and the nazis weren't ever removed without recognizing nad respecting the Germans human rights ROFL

and Hamas don't even recognize basic human rights eish. Why don't you address them then. Oh wait they're not evil capitalist juice :rolleyes:
 
Xarog said:
No, I'm saying your words imply such a conclusion.
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What I was implying... as I have repeatedly stated over in this thread is that

1) Hamas is to blame.
2) Those who voted for Hamas are getting what they asked for
3) The rest of the Palestinians are innocent bystanders or casualties of war.

I have never lumped them all together and am very careful to imply/describe/state who I am talking about. Despite what you may want.

Comprende?
 
UN retracts claim Israeli strike hit school

February 05, 2009 04:08am

THE United Nations has retracted a claim that an Israeli strike which killed more than 40 people in northern Gaza city of Jabaliya last month hit a school run by a UN agency.

"The humanitarian coordinator would like to clarify that the shelling, and all of the fatalities, took place outside rather than inside the school," the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs said in its latest weekly update on the situation in Gaza.

It stressed that its initial report of the January 6 incident correctly stated that Israeli shells hit outside the school run by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA, but that it later referred to "the shelling of the UNRWA school in Jabaliya".

The Israeli military initially said its forces had responded to hostile fire from within the UN school but later reportedly retracted that statement.

The attack sparked widespread outrage in the midst of Israel's deadly offensive in Gaza.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html
 
LETTER TO THE WORLD
by Eliezer ben Yisrael
Tuesday November 6, 2007
from The Times of Israel​

On November 24, 2006, at the age of 92, a man named Stanley Goldfoot passed away. He is remembered by family and friends for his love for and devotion to Israel and the Jewish people.

Stanley Goldfoot was born in Johannesburg, South Africa. Subsequent to his hearing a speech about the Zionist vision by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, he headed for Palestine where, at the age of 18, he joined a HaShomer HaTzair kibbutz.

After the rebirth of the Jewish State of Israel his main goal, which he eventually realized, was to establish a Zionist English newspaper, "The Times of Israel."


In the first issue of "The Times of Israel", Stanley Goldfoot wrote his famous controversial "Letter to the World from Jerusalem", which caused quite a stir. The article is still relevant and, in his memory, I am sharing it with you.
__________________________________________________
A Letter to the World from Jerusalem by Eliezer ben Yisrael (Stanley Goldfoot)

I am not a creature from another planet, as you seem to
believe. I am a Jerusalemite-like yourselves, a man of flesh and
blood. I am a citizen of my city, an integral part of my people.
I have a few things to get off my chest. Because I am not a
diplomat, I do not have to mince words. I do not have to please you
or even persuade you. I owe you nothing. You did not build this city,
you did not live in it, you did not defend it when they came to destroy
it.

And we will be damned if we will let you take it away.
There was a Jerusalem before there was a New York. When Berlin,
Moscow, London, and Paris were miasmal forest and swamp, there was a
thriving Jewish community here. It gave something to the world which
you nations have rejected ever since you established yourselves- a
humane moral code.

Here the prophets walked, their words flashing like forked lightning.

Here a people who wanted nothing more than to be left
alone, fought off waves of heathen would-be conquerors, bled and died
on the battlements, hurled themselves into the flames of their
burning Temple rather than surrender, and when finally overwhelmed by
sheer numbers and led away into captivity, swore that before they
forgot Jerusalem, they would see their tongues cleave to their palates,
their right arms wither.

For two pain-filled millennia, while we were your unwelcome
guests, we prayed daily to return to this city. Three times a day we
petitioned the Almighty: "Gather us from the four corners of the
world, bring us upright to our land, return in mercy to Jerusalem,
Thy city, and swell in it as Thou promised." On every Yom Kippur and
Passover, we fervently voiced the hope that next year would find us in
Jerusalem.

Your inquisitions, pogroms, expulsions, the ghettos into which
you jammed us, your forced baptisms, your quota systems, your genteel
anti-Semitism, and the final unspeakable horror, the holocaust (and
worse, your terrifying disinterest in it)- all these have not broken us.
They may have sapped what little moral strength you still possessed,
but they forged us into steel. Do you think that you can break us now
after all we have been through? Do you really believe that after
Dachau and Auschwitz we are frightened by your threats of blockades and
sanctions?

We have been to Hell and back- a Hell of your making. What more could
you possibly have in your arsenal that could scare us?

I have watched this city bombarded twice by nations calling
themselves civilized. In 1948, while you looked on apathetically, I
saw women and children blown to smithereens, after we agreed to your
request to internationalize the city. It was a deadly combination
that did the job- British officers, Arab gunners, and American-made cannon. And
then the savage sacking of the Old City-the willful slaughter, the
wanton destruction of every synagogue and religious school, the
desecration of Jewish cemeteries, the sale by a ghoulish government
of tombstones for building materials, for poultry runs, army camps, even
latrines.

And you never said a word.
You never breathed the slightest protest when the Jordanians
shut off the holiest of our places, the Western Wall, in violation of
the pledges they had made after the war- a war they waged,
incidentally, against the decision of the UN. Not a murmur came from
you whenever the legionnaires in their spiked helmets casually opened
fire upon our citizens from behind the walls.

Your hearts bled when Berlin came under siege. You rushed your
airlift "to save the gallant Berliners". But you did not send one
ounce of food when Jews starved in besieged Jerusalem. You thundered
against the wall which the East Germans ran through the middle of the
German capital- but not one peep out of you about that other wall, the one
that tore through the heart of Jerusalem.

And when that same thing happened 20 years later, and the Arabs
unleashed a savage, unprovoked bombardment of the Holy City again,
did any of you do anything?

The only time you came to life was when the city was at last
reunited. Then you wrung your hands and spoke loftily of "justice"
and need for the "Christian" quality of turning the other cheek.
The truth- and you know it deep inside your gut - you would
prefer the city to be destroyed rather than have it governed by Jews.
No matter how diplomatically you phrase it, the age old prejudices
seep out of every word.

If our return to the city has tied your theology in knots,
perhaps you had better reexamine your catechisms. After what we have
been through, we are not passively going to accommodate ourselves to
the twisted idea that we are to suffer eternal homelessness until we
accept your savior.

For the first time since the year 70, there is now complete
religious freedom for all in Jerusalem. For the first time since the
Romans put a torch to the Temple, everyone has equal rights (You
prefer to have some more equal than others.) We loathe the sword- but
it was you who forced us to take it up. We crave peace, but we are
not going back to the peace of 1948 as you would like us to.

We are home. It has a lovely sound for a nation you have willed
to wander over the face of the globe. We are not leaving. We are
redeeming the pledge made by our forefathers: Jerusalem is being
rebuilt. "Next year" and the year after, and after, and after, until
the end of time- "in Jerusalem"!

Stanley Goldfoot
Founder Editor
The Times of Israel
August 1969
 
Garyvdh said:
Ahahaha... so the UN turns out to be not as trustworthy as everyone thought! :D

Big surprise there!
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Ahahaha Isreal claim they did hit the school coz there were Hamas militants inside.
 
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