The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Alan]

Neither. How can killing of innocents have any level of acceptability.

Understandable ? I can understand the frustrations of the palestinians and I can understand the need for self defense from the Israeli side.

I just cannot accept the way either side are going about their cause. Nor can I accept either party denying culpability, blaming the other side while suggesting they themselves are blameless.

So using guided munitions on Hamas is the same as randomly lobbing rockets into towns in your eyes

The Strategic bombing by the allies in WW2 for example was equally unacceptable as gassing innocent civilians by the nazis

If you don't mind answering this post too.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2406255&postcount=216

Also your comments on Obamasiah's statement regarding the rocket attacks

 

[d0b33]

Neither. How can killing of innocents have any level of acceptability.

Understandable ? I can understand the frustrations of the palestinians and I can understand the need for self defense from the Israeli side.

I just cannot accept the way either side are going about their cause. Nor can I accept either party denying culpability, blaming the other side while suggesting they themselves are blameless.

My view exactly, I see no reason to explain myself further.

 

[daveza]

So using guided munitions on Hamas is the same as randomly lobbing rockets into towns in your eyes

Yes, if innocents are killed.

The Strategic bombing by the allies in WW2 for example was equally unacceptable as gassing innocent civilians by the nazis

Unacceptable yes. Strategic bombing by the British was a misnomer - any strike within 5 miles of the target was regarded as a hit. I don't need to comment on the death camps.

If you don't mind answering this post too.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2406255&postcount=216

If a terrorist is using a 5 year old as a human shield and is about to kill 3 innocent 5 year olds and your only option was to take him out along with the child would you to do it? Would it be justifiable in other words

If the child the terrorist was using was yours would you sacrifice him ?

Also your comments on Obamasiah's statement regarding the rocket attacks

I asked earlier - which quote ?

I am an idealist and a pacifist. I understand the need, for example, for the necessity of crushing the Reich but war of any kind just disgusts me.

 

[Alan]

My view exactly, I see no reason to explain myself further.

More like you can't explain it further. While saying civilian casualties are unacceptable is astonishing in it's sheer naivety when it comes to dealing with the real world . By your reckoning then fighting the nazis was wrong because it involved killing civilians which by your own admission has no level of acceptability

 

[daveza]

It's always easier to accept the death of innocents when they aren't your loved ones.

There are more subtle means of taking out an enemy besides shock and awe.

 

[Alan]

Yes, if innocents are killed.

Unbelievable. So taking out a killer along with nnocent people is exactly the same as just killing innocent people. Can you not comprehend you are in fact saving lives by taking out the killer while just killing civilians alone does nothing

Unacceptable yes. Strategic bombing by the British was a misnomer - any strike within 5 miles of the target was regarded as a hit. I don't need to comment on the death camps.

If you don't mind answering this post too.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2406255&postcount=216

So I take you do see them both as the same.

Strategic bombing served the purpose of undermining the nazis war machine by hitting their workforce ultimately shortening the war and saving lives. It was solely used during a time of war and those victims were remunerated after the war by rebuilding their towns and society. Now that is the same as mass exterminating an entire people as a policy until none were left.

If the child the terrorist was using was yours would you sacrifice him ?

I don't see an answer from you in your post So would it be acceptable or not? I'll answer once you have

I asked earlier - which quote ?

No country in the world would allow this type of onslaught against its citizens. As President-elect Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."

I am an idealist and a pacifist. I understand the need, for example, for the necessity of crushing the Reich but war of any kind just disgusts me.

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately at the time people of your persuasion were adamantly against the war with the nazi's using exactly the same justification you do now. Your claim of civilian deaths as unacceptable no matter what is not compatible with your 'understanding the necessity of crushing the Reich.'

You can't have it both ways. It's either totally unacceptable or it isn't.

 

[LazyLion]

These are not civilians... these are people who stuck around to watch the war... the civilians left cos they value their lives. These people want to play with death.

 

[d0b33]

These are not civilians... these are people who stuck around to watch the war... the civilians left cos they value their lives. These people want to play with death.

You make me sick.

Edit:
And your friends like Frankie.

 

[Frankie]

These are not civilians... these are people who stuck around to watch the war... the civilians left cos they value their lives. These people want to play with death.

Probably the same ones that danced in the street when their comrades flew planes into the World Trade Centre, and bombed the London underground, ............. the list goes on.

 

[marine1]

You make me sick.

Edit:
And your friends like Frankie.

I dont get you man.

 

[LazyLion]

You make me sick.

Edit:
And your friends like Frankie.

Thank you

The feeling is mutual.

The Israelis warned the Palestinians before this week to leave and to move away from the Hamas military targets.

What would you do if you received such a warning?

 

[LazyLion]

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/TUJA-7MT4R9?OpenDocument

Ms. AbuZayd stressed that, in such a densely packed area as Gaza, it was almost impossible to avoid civilian casualties as "collateral damage". There were always civilian or United Nations structures around targets. Eight students had died and 12 were still in the hospital. Because targets had included Hamas institutions and police stations, as well as individual houses, people had been warned to leave their houses. As people did not know where to go, 200 had taken refuge in UNRWA schools, which did not function anymore. Humanitarian access was a problem, although Israel had become more cooperative. Among the most severe psychological problems was t

 

[Frankie]

Which comment from Obama ?

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/12/27/hamas/

if somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

 

[daveza]

Thank you


The Israelis warned the Palestinians before this week to leave and to move away from the Hamas military targets.

If hamas are supposedly all over Gaza, then where are the palestinians supposed to go ?

On the acceptability of ' collateral damage ' we will never agree, except perhaps agree to differ.

As to Obama's comment I agree - take out those firing the rockets.

Send ground troops in to take out hamas. Yes they would lose more soldiers but I can't rationalise the concept of killing civilians to save soldiers.

 

[LazyLion]

If hamas are supposedly all over Gaza, then where are the palestinians supposed to go ?

On the acceptability of ' collateral damage ' we will never agree, except perhaps agree to differ.

The borders were open before the incursion started. They could have left last week. Like I said... how much brains does it take to figure out that if Saleem next door is firing home made rockets into Israel all day that he is very likely to become a target. Come on... it does not take that much common sense. These people stayed behind for a reason.

I was at WITS during the protest years... I saw the protesters pushing women and children to the front so that they could take the brunt of the rubber bullets and tear gas... it makes for great press!

 

[Frankie]

The warnings before the Israeli retaliation.




Hamas sources also said two members of its military wing were killed Wednesday morning during a "work-related accident," while on a jihad mission.

On Sunday, Olmert said Israel will "take the necessary measures" to respond to the rocket attacks from Gaza.

"Israel will know when to respond correctly and with the necessary responsibility," Olmert said at the beginning of his weekly Cabinet meeting.

He said he would "not go into detail" about what actions Israel would take, but insisted the country had formulated various plans to respond to different contingencies.

"A responsible government is neither eager for battle, nor does it shy away from it," Olmert said.

 

[adamr]

let me ask this to Marine1, Frankie and Garyvdh ... what in your view is the solution to end the violence in the middle east? and without more killing? ... im really curious to know your peoples views ...

 

[daveza]

The borders were open before the incursion started. They could have left last week.

And gone where ? Children, old people, sick people - where were they supposed to go ?

 

[adamr]

If a terrorist is using a 5 year old as a human shield and is about to kill 3 innocent 5 year olds and your only option was to take him out along with the child would you to do it? Would it be justifiable in other words

and when has someone used a 5 year old as a shield ... lol!!!!! ... explain ...

 

[LazyLion]

let me ask this to Marine1, Frankie and Garyvdh ... what in your view is the solution to end the violence in the middle east? and without more killing? ... im really curious to know your peoples views ...

1) For the militant and radical Muslim factions to renounce Terror tactics and attacks on innocent people (suicide bombings, rocket attacks, etc.)
2) For them to acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a nation.
3) For them to elect a democratic, credible and capable government
4) For them to concentrate on building infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank instead of using all their funds to buy weapons.
5) For the other Arab States to stop sponsoring Hamas and other Radical organizations.
6) For them to go to the table with Israel and thrash this thing out with meaningful and sincere dialogue.
7) For the Imams and Muslim clerics to stop preaching Jihad against the West.
8) For Israel to respond in kind and withdraw from the occupied areas and help to re-settle the Palestinian people who want to get on with their lives.

Simple.