The Middle East Conflict Thread

[marine1]

Yes, and the earth is flat.

In Poverty Stricken Gaza , Their are no Bunkers.

Damn it Aqua beat me to it

 

[Syndyre]

In Poverty Stricken Gaza , Their are no Bunkers.

No, just rockets.

 

[CTSA]

In Poverty Stricken Gaza , Their are no Bunkers.

You don't needs millions for bunkers, just common sense and determination. What, you think bunkers in WWII were built out of gold?

Besides, yes Gaza is poverty-stricken, but Hamas is not. The last time I checked, the government budget was $1.6 billion. And I assume this excludes the millions that Hamas receives from other sources, including Syria and Iran. Except to waste their money on rockets, they could use it to pay for bunkers, feed their people, and give their children an appropriate education.

 

[BBSA]

You don't needs millions for bunkers, just common sense and determination. What, you think bunkers in WWII were built out of gold?

Besides, yes Gaza is poverty-stricken, but Hamas is not. The last time I checked, the government budget was $1.6 billion. And I assume this excludes the millions that Hamas receives from other sources, including Syria and Iran. Except to waste their money on rockets, they could use it to pay for bunkers, feed their people, and give their children an appropriate education.

Well if they do that they would not need bunkers

 

[CTSA]

Precisely Let's hope others start seeing it as well!

 

[LazyLion]

for all u hamas haters http://www.zoopy.com/video/k5i/hamas-rockets?browse=gnz enjoy

Why would you come in here and use the name of Hamas, instead of your own name or a different nick? Are you trolling? Are you trying to enflame this thread? Who are you? If you are a regular poster, then you are trolling under a different name. If you are a new poster, then you have chose an inappropriate name, as you will cause strife in this thread by using the name of a murderous terrorist organization. I suggest you leave, or come back under a more suitable name and participate here constructively.

 

[adamr]

firstly i wont trust the numbers from israel sources saying how many hamas forces were killed. Hamas says a handful.
And someone asked why hamas attacked israel which i must state did not break the truce. Palestinians are living under oppression. No one can deny this. So the attacks are against this oppression. And its not to destroy the jews like many say

 

[BBSA]

for all u hamas haters http://www.zoopy.com/video/k5i/hamas-rockets?browse=gnz enjoy

OK, could you please tell us exactly what Hamas objectives are?

 

[Glock26]

and here i thought id stop. Out of the thousand killed, how many were hamas militia? Dont see any stats any where on this.

The news today reported that out of the 1000 killed, just under half were militants. So that means that almost 500 of those are Hamas fighters.
Not difficult to see that the rest being in such close proximity to the rocket launchers were inevitable.
Anyways..just what the news mentioned.

G26

 

[BBSA]

firstly i wont trust the numbers from israel sources saying how many hamas forces were killed. Hamas says a handful.
And someone asked why hamas attacked israel which i must state did not break the truce. Palestinians are living under oppression. No one can deny this. So the attacks are against this oppression. And its not to destroy the jews like many say

From Wiki:

Hamas' charter calls for the recapturing of the State of Israel and replacing it with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now internationally known as Israel.

From Hamas charter:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

 

[JHatman]

Why would you come in here and use the name of Hamas, instead of your own name or a different nick? Are you trolling? Are you trying to enflame this thread? Who are you? If you are a regular poster, then you are trolling under a different name. If you are a new poster, then you have chose an inappropriate name, as you will cause strife in this thread by using the name of a murderous terrorist organization. I suggest you leave, or come back under a more suitable name and participate here constructively.

+1

 

[Glock26]

Dude...you just said there are no bunkers in Gaza????
Are you serious? Do you know anyone fighting in there? It is ALL bunkers. Half the place is bunkers. Some built as basements, others dug by the fighters or part of an extensive tunnel system.
That isn't guesswork, that is fact. I am pretty sure you know that. I wish this thread were locked btw, it is now just plain ridiculous.
Btw..the summary about Hamas rejecting the extension of the 6 month ceasefire is entirely true. Do your own research and you will see that is fact.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=17216
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54694
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53515

How about these quotes?

Abu Muhammad, a spokesman for the Islamic Jihad terror group, which has been responsible for recent rocket-fire, vowed his organization would continue launching rockets deeper into the Jewish state.

He told WND Israel would be "very surprised and astonished soon by our rocket capacities. We will not abide by any cease-fire."

Al Aqsa's Abu Ahmed said his group is receiving help from Hezbollah to import long-range rockets and train in guerrilla warfare tactics.

"We have warm relations with Hezbollah, which helps with some of the training programs," Abu Ahmed said. "We don't have anything to be ashamed of – that we are dealing with Hezbollah and that we are receiving training and information from them."

He said Hezbollah maintains cells in the Sinai.

"The Sinai is an excellent ground for training, the exchange of information and weapons and for meetings on how to turn every piece of land into usable territory for a confrontation with Israel," Abu Ahmed said.

Three weeks after the November truce was forged, Palestinian terror leaders, including militants from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah organization, explained to WND they would use the cease-fire to create Hezbollah-like armies in the Gaza Strip.

"We are turning Gaza into south Lebanon," Abu Ahmed, northern Gaza leader for the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terror group told WND, referring to the area in Lebanon in which Hezbollah built military bases and a large rocket infrastructure.

"We learned from Hezbollah's victory that Israel can be defeated if we know how to hit them and if we are well prepared," Abu Ahmed said. "We are importing rockets and the knowledge to launch them, and we are also making many plans for battle."

The Brigades, the declared military wing of Abbas' Fatah party, took responsibility along with the Islamic Jihad terror group, for every suicide bombing in Israel the past two years.

 

[d0b33]

murderous terrorist organization

Israel?

 

[Ghazi]

for all u hamas haters http://www.zoopy.com/video/k5i/hamas-rockets?browse=gnz enjoy

So what's your favourite pastime?

http://www.zoopy.com/HAMAS

 

[BBSA]

Do not feed the troll.

 

[Ghazi]

Do not feed the troll.

Best advice. Not even with the cheap troll biscuits.

 

[daveza]

So who do u guys think is lying?? I posted a news report a few pages back where Ehud Olmert gives an account of how he told Rice to abstain from the UN vote after phoning Bush.. Thing is, video footage doesn't show a break in his lecture/public speaking when the call was suppose to have happen and the US denies it happen completely.

I find that very interesting because one side is obviously lying.

Very puzzling this.

Seems Olmert has a bone to pick with Rice - perhaps something to do with the negative feedback on attacking Iran ?

If it is true then it's a very foolish thing to do - biting the hand that feeds you.

Some comments from the Jpost talkback about this matter - and Jpost is fiercely pro-Israel and supported by a great number of pro-Israel Americans:-

US says Olmert's UN vote story 'just 100%, totally not true'
If Olmert made this information public to anyone, regardless of whether or not it's true, he needs to leave office effective immediately.! War or no war. How dare he embarass Israel's most consistent friend in history, President Bush. Olmert's not a Prime Minister, he's a Prime Nitwit.

Why make this public at all?
I fail to see why Olmert would make this story (whether true or not) public. What is the advantage for Israel? To me, all this does is stoke tensions with Israel's greatest friend (something it can ill afford in this time of war) and lend credence to the pervasive anti-semetic view that Israel/Jews control the United States and, by extension, the world. Olmert really seems of have completely lost it.

Big Mistake Israel
Israel would not be anything if it weren't for the United States and I think this will further the cracks that are beginning between our two countries. My Country America, GIVES you $3billion a year in weapons and other aid, I don't want MY tax money going to you anymore. You apparently think you can just whip up what you want without consequences, but you're sadly mistaken. You may have our Main stream media convinced, but ahhh Livestation thank you! When the war began 41 percent opposed what you are doing and slightly more supported, it's sure less by now.

I'm at a loss at what to make of it.

 

[Xarog]

I know what constitutions are...
http://www.google.co.za/search?q=de...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

but the terms you use here show me that you really have no idea what you are talking about. A constitution is a governing document. The whole point of it is to tell people how the country or organization will run.

Sigh. Aside from the fact that a charter is actually registered with the state when you are referring to legal charters (but you should know this, you're educated, right? ), the fact of the matter is that actions speak much louder than words.

And then there's the fact that the Hamas charter wasn't really created by Hamas :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#History

Hamas documents

Hamas has expressed political stances and explained its views in a series of documents published since its founding. However, senior British Diplomat and former British Ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in an interview on the BBC Today Programme that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas linked imam some years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palistian government in 2006"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7823000/7823746.stm

Since Hamas' creation it has undergone several changes in terms of composition and purpose. It started as an organisation with absolutley no ties to violence whatsoever, providing assistance to the community. It later created a military brigade, and then even later it became a bona fide political party which stood for elections. I doubt very very seriously that the people who first created Hamas either intended for Hamas to become an organisation that resisted Israel's occupation violently, or that they projected Hamas ever standing for elections.

So yet another fail.

so by your own admission, we should not take it seriously?

Precisely.

Why the Hell then should we take ANYTHING Hamas says seriously?

Hamas linked imam != Hamas.

No, by stating something which is blatantly obvious and unnecessary. I dunno, maybe you are just trying to dazzle us with your edukashun!

Well you're putting your foot in your mouth so spectacularly I just had to make sure that you weren't going to yet again claim something totally ridiculous.

OK, so anyone can be a member of Hamas , and you don't even have to agree with their charter. So if I try to join, believing that Israel has a right to exist and defend herself, how long do you think I am going to last as a member? And will they just let me go... or will they kill me for my views?

There's plenty of Palestinians that are perfectly fine with living alongside Israel. I'd be really pleased if you could show me any links where Hamas has attacked Palestinian civilians purely for their political views. You do know there are Palestinian Christians, right?

No, my silence means that I already answered you in a previous post and am now just ignoring your repeated circular postings.

You did not. You stated you were perfectly fine with anyone who attacked civilians being exterminated. When I pointed out that this applies to Israel, all we got was total silence.

I reserve the right to ignore your dumb comments and inane ramblings. I will reply when you say something that I can decipher and is worthy of an answer.

Translation : Your argument is hollow and you have no response.

Bwahaha! OMW... what an idiot. so I guess the Second World War was just a picnic in the park?

Yes, Germany got attacked for attacking and occupying foreign nations. They did not get attacked for voting Hitler into power.

(Note how I'm yet again stating the obvious to help you along the way.)

Guess that makes you the idiot?

Sure, Sure... so the rockets are just them being friendly and jovial?

The rockets are a response to 40 years of consistent occupation along with the denial of the rights of the Palestinians to express their right to self-determination. When the occupation ends, the rockets will end.

Um, sorry... but who got their asses kicked in that war?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Aw, shame... they had to beg Israel not to wipe out Egypt's Army!

Well that was easier than I thought. You've just quoted proof that Israel is entirely unwilling to be reasonable, and the settlement between Israel, Jordan and Egypt was a result of Israel's arm being twisted by the US.

And just to recap the debate blow-by-blow : I state that Israel does not want peace and has never offered peace. Alan throws a bogus claim of Egypt and Israel and Jordan making peace into the ring. I point out that Israel got its arse kicked (which it did, which is why the US could alternatively demand the october 22 positions), and then you go and do me the favour of qouting word for word, just how unwilling Israel was to actually give up any territory. Seriously, I have to give you my thanks for that.

We've been over this again and again. Nobody is stopping them from forming their own state.

We'll continue going over it again and again when until you realise that you cannot form a state when you are occupied by a foreign power.

What does the land have to do with it? The land will be given back to them when they are responsible enough to handle it.

So how do you explain the fact that Palestinian homes are bulldozed, with fenced off Israeli settlements being built in the place of the demolished homes, with the Palestinians being barred from their own lands?

Israel already pulled back from several areas as a sign of willingness to give back land for peace. But the peace did not last and the militants resumed their murderous campaign.

BS. Israel only withdrew from Gaza because it was scared that it would be forced to annex the territory, and grant 1.5 million arabs citizenship and the right to vote.

Why the Hell is it Israel's problem? Israel was given the chance to set up a nation and they jumped at the opportunity. Why didn't the Palestinians do the same back then in 1948? Maybe because they don't want to? Or don't know how to? Or don't have the willpower to? I dunno?

I have said it many times before and I will say it again : There was no central palestinian authority which could possibly accept the role of leaders of the palestinian state. They had no standing army, they were a goup of people living in many villages with tribal leaders each controlling their own area. It is not the fault of Palestinians in general that the many leaders over them did not manage to prepare a modern government by 1948. Their right to self-determination, and to live in a state where they have a say as to who leads them is in no way negated.

 

[Xarog]

Just as I thought... you refuse to denounce acts of terror when it is Hamas, but are quite quick to point out Israel's supposed wrongdoing. So if you are not willing to be objective then why are we wasting our time talking to you?

I only point out its wrongdoing with regards to civilian attacks because the pro-israeli camp claims that they are moral and upstanding, and claims that Hamas deserves to be exterminated for their actions.

If the Israelis are moral and upstanding, then Hamas must be the same. Hamas has never targetted anywhere near as many civilians as Israel has.

In other words, my only interest here is showing up your collective hypocrisy.

But if it makes you feel better : Attacks against civilians are a very very bad thing, and I truly wish that none existed. I can understand why Hamas act as they do with the rockets, and I can also understand why Israel acted as they did with their cluster bombs, but in niether case does it mean that I support such attacks.

We will start decrying that, IF it is true, when you start decrying the rocket launches and suicide attacks.

I'll be waiting.

They would never accept it. The extremists among them, who have the majority, refuse to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation and they desire the destruction of all Jews. In fact, I think they would probably kill you for even suggesting it.

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians just want to live in peace. Before the 1880s and the beginning of the Zionist expansion, Palestinian Jews, Christians and Muslims had lived peacefully side-by-side for centuries. Believe it or not, but there ARE still a handful of Palestinian Jews living within the Occupied Territories. Infact, the Palestinian Jews were originally opposed to the zionists on the grounds that they were creating conflict among the different religious groups. Who'da thunk, hmmm?

I do not have any problem with Muslim people, but I do have a big problem with terrorism. Wish you would also take a stands against terrorism.

I'll also be waiting for you to denounce deliberate attacks against civilians by Israel.

I am against terrorism, who would not be? ... but we going in circles again ... dont think Xarog, Aqua, or any of the other people are saying terrorism is right !? Hell they are fighting against it.

Absolutely. The only way to end terrorism is to give people their basic human rights and to give the people (collectively) something to live for. When you can barely get enough to eat and drink, when you are shivering and cold, when the entire world ignores the injustice against you and you are made to suffer on a daily basis, it's hardly surprising why some people choose death instead. And also entirely understandable that they'll choose to die in a way that harms the very thing that made their lives so unpleasant in the first place.

Yes, I have several. both Muslim and Jewish. My beef is not with the Muslim people, but with extremists. And I have the same anger towards Christian and Hindu extremists who cause innocent deaths. I have some great chats with the Muslim restaurant owner up the road where I get my Bunny Chow from!

No Jewish extremists, then?

Finally you admit Hamas are terrorists.

Um... I thought the fact that Hamas has engaged in terrorism wasn't even in dispute.

Please show proof that the Israelis use their own citizens as human shields since you say they are the same as Hamas

Israelis, no. Gazans, yes :

Yesterday, Amnesty International also accused Israeli soldiers of using Palestinian civilians as human shields – a charge Israel has repeatedly levelled against Hamas.

Malcolm Smart, a spokesman, said: “Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...dangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108

Fail.

Excellent point Alan.

Indeed. Israel is as bad as Hamas.

 

[Xarog]

In June, Israel and Hamas made a 6-month truce. If Hamas stopped the rockets attacks, Israel would lift its blockade on Gaza. However Hamas still continued firing a few rockets in Israel, which led Israel to lift the blockade only partially, mainly out of fear that Hamas was still smuggling arms. In November, Israel raided a Hamas-dug tunnel, which Israel claims was gonna be used to kidnap soldiers. Six Hamas militants were killed, thus Hamas increased the rocket attacks on Israel.

Israel claimed, yes. Israel also claimed that the UN buildings they blew up were holding militants, however they were forced to retract their claims after it was proven that they'd used footage that was over a year old to try to justify the attacks last week. Conclusion : Israel lies.

In response, Israel offered to renew and extend the six month truce in December. Hamas, a week later (20/12/08), refused the offer and instantly increased the attacks to pre-truce levels.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-12-23-voa9.cfm

Part of the truce agreement was that Israel lift the blockade. During the ceasefire agreement the number of rocket attacks dropped exponentially. It should be noted at this point that there are many more resistance groups in Gaza other than Hamas, and they were never party to any cease-fire agreement. Israel has absolutely no proof that any of the rocket attacks came from Hamas itself.

Yet again, Hamas makes a show of good faith and Israel doesn't lift a finger to fulfill their obligations.

Hamas states that Israeli refusal to fully lift the blockade was its main reason. On the 25th of Dec, the Israeli Prime minister makes a direct appeal to the Gaza people to put pressure on their leaders to stop the attacks or Israel will attack.

What's the point of a cease-fire agreement where the other side refuses to fulfill their obligations?

On 26th of Dec, in an attempt to revive the truce, Israel gives in to Hamas and lifts its blockade entirely, hoping Hamas would stop its attacks.
Unfortunately, Hamas does the opposite. They continue firing rockets into Israel, one landing in a Northern Gaza house killing two Palestinian children.

Funny, because on the 23rd December, Hamas had offered Israel a new cease-fire agreement if they actually lifted the siege.