The Middle East Conflict Thread

Aqua_lung said:
Well anyway, this is a breach of cease-fire, just shows how little respect Israel has for it because fishing boats don't deserve to be shelled.

If Hamas fires rockets again and Israel cries out blaming Hamas for breaking the cease-fire I'll just have to laugh at this pathetic game.
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And if there are a few Hamas that want to fire off a few rounds/grenades off the next 'fishing vessel'?
 
@daveza


A prominent leader of al-Qaeda has called for attacks in Western countries particularly Britain in retaliation for Israel's offensive in Gaza, arguing that London was behind the creation of the Jewish state.

"It's high time that this criminal country, I mean Britain, paid the price of its historic crime," Abu Yahya al-Libi said in a video posted on an Islamist website.

"There is no child who dies in Palestine ... without this being the outcome of the [country] that handed Palestine to the Jews ... Britain."
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"O, mujahideen (holy strugglers) everywhere rise like an angered lion ... do what you can to make the infidel capitals of the West and America and the Arab Tyrants taste what our brothers and weak folks in Palestine have been tasting."

Libi praised a three-day rampage in Mumbai, India in November in which 183 people were killed by suspected Islamists who he called "heroes" and urged similar acts of retaliation.

Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden earlier this month called on Muslims to rise in a holy struggle against the Israeli offensive in Gaza and accused Arab leaders of collusion with Israel.
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It was my opinion towards the remarks above, now I never attacked anybody BUT posted my own opinion, in response to that you started a personal attack on me, and have now derailed the thread because I do not think the same as you..

Everybody can believe and think what they like it doesn't bother me, so stay on topic if you would like to have a religious debate with me open a thread in the proper section and I will gladly discuss things with you

Now enjoy the rest of your evening :)
 
@zagame

Some of us have been around this thread long enough not to let it spoil our evening and to know the difference between a personal attack and checking the other sides credentials.

It's a debate, thrust and parry.

And while it may veer onto the gravel once in a while, it always gets back on the long and winding road.

;)
 
Mephisto_Helix said:
And if there are a few Hamas that want to fire off a few rounds/grenades off the next 'fishing vessel'?
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Is that meant to be a legitimate question? Have you fished before? fish are not static and fishing boats need to follow the catch but fisherman are not allowed to leave the harbour...

Hamas deciding to fight at sea on a fishing boat would be a joke, they can't possibly hit back at the Israeli navy which makes your question laughable.
 
An extremist has no sense ....... if he can see the opportunity of killing even one infidel, it may be worthwhile.
 
daveza said:
@zagame

Some of us have been around this thread long enough not to let it spoil our evening and to know the difference between a personal attack and checking the other sides credentials.

It's a debate, thrust and parry.

And while it may veer onto the gravel once in a while, it always gets back on the long and winding road.

;)
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apology excepted :D

I apologise if i went off at you ... my bad and your point taken ( nicely worded I might add)
 
Aqua_lung said:
Well anyway, this is a breach of cease-fire, just shows how little respect Israel has for it because fishing boats don't deserve to be shelled.

If Hamas fires rockets again and Israel cries out blaming Hamas for breaking the cease-fire I'll just have to laugh at this pathetic game.
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I was questioning the accuracy, since there was hardly any coverage
 
Alan said:
The One-State Solution

This will no doubt get loones aroused. Anti Imperialist freedom fighting hero Mummar Qaddafi weighs in backing them up :o

:D
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One state solution is not a new idea, even Einstein was sympathetic.
Binational proposals for a common Jewish-Arab state in Palestine have existed since at least the 1920s. In 1925, Martin Buber in Germany and Judah Magnes in Palestine established Brit Shalom (Covenant of Peace) to promote Jewish-Arab understanding in Palestine. Brit Shalom, which functioned until 1933, stood on a platform of creating "a binational state in which the two peoples will enjoy equal rights as befits the two elements shaping the country's destiny, irrespective of which of the two is numerically superior at any given time" (from their first publication Our Aspirations, 1927). It had a few hundred members, mostly European-born intellectuals like Buber and the journalist Robert Weltsch. Albert Einstein was sympathetic to its vision. The general concept of binationalism was to be adopted by other minority Zionist groups, like Hashomer Hatzair and Mapam, Kedmah Mizracha, the Ichud and the League for Jewish-Arab Rapprochement.
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Obama lays out vision for Middle East peace

he also warned Hamas militants, who seized control of Gaza in 2007, that they must halt rocket fire on southern Israel and that Washington would continue to support Israel's right to defend itself.

"For years Hamas has launched thousands of rockets at innocent Israeli citizens. No democracy can tolerate such danger to its people," Obama said.
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At least one liberal with some commonsense!
 
You left out this bit from the same article -

"Now we must extend a hand of opportunity to those who seek peace. As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza's border crossings should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce," Obama said.
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And you left out the following:

Obama also reiterated the US backing for international demands made of the Hamas faction that governs Gaza: that it recognise Israel, end violence and agree to recognise previous peace agreements with Israel.
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Well bollocks then !

Here follows the entire complete unexpurgated article ( with nothing left out ):-

Obama lays out Middle East vision


Mitchell, right, and Holbrooke, left, are both
seasoned diplomats [AFP]


Barack Obama, the US president, has urged Israel and the Palestinian group Hamas to maintain their ceasefires in Gaza in his first remarks on the crisis since taking office.

The US leader was speaking at the state department as he named George Mitchell, who helped broker the Good Friday peace accord in Northern Ireland, as US special envoy for the Middle East.

Obama said he was "deeply concerned" about the loss of life in Gaza and also reiterated the US view that Israel had a right to defend itself from Palestinian rocket attacks.

"It will be the policy of my administration to actively and aggressively seek a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians, as well as Israel and its Arab neighbours," Obama said.

"Now we must extend a hand of opportunity to those who seek peace. As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza's border crossings should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce," Obama said.

Obama also reiterated the US backing for international demands made of the Hamas faction that governs Gaza: that it recognise Israel, end violence and agree to recognise previous peace agreements with Israel.

He also said the US would support efforts to end weapons smuggling across the Gaza border from Egypt.

'Unfortunate start'

Obama did, however, call for a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza following its offensive, and said the US would provide humanitarian and economic assistance to the Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip.

"It seems that Obama is trying to repeat the same mistakes that [former US president] George Bush made"

Osama Hamdan, a Hamas spokesman

Osama Hamdan, a Hamas spokesman, told Al Jazeera that Obama's remarks seemed to show that the US viewed the situation through "Israeli eyes".

"It seems that Obama is trying to repeat the same mistakes that George Bush made without taking into consideration Bush's experience that resulted in the explosion of the region instead of reaching stability and peace in it," he said.

"I think this is an unfortunate start for President Obama in the region and the Middle East issue. And it looks like the next four years, if it continues with the same tone, will be a total failure."

More than 1,300 Palestinians, and 13 Israelis, died after Israel began its offensive in Gaza on December 27, before both sides separately declared a ceasefire on January 18.

Veteran negotiator

Mitchell, 75, acknowledged there were "many reasons to be sceptical" about the prospects for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

In depth
Profile: George Mitchell

"The key is the mutual commitment of the parties, and the active participation of the United States government," he said.

He is best known for helping to broker Northern Ireland's landmark Good Friday agreement in 1998 which ended decades of bloody conflict, and experience which he said led him to form the conviction that "there is no conflict that cannot be ended".

In 2000, he also presided over a committee investigating the ongoing violence of the Middle East conflict, which recommended Palestinians do more to stop attacks on Israel and Israel stop settlement building on occupied land.

Obama also named Richard Holbrooke, a former UN ambassador, as his special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Dayton architect

Holbrooke, another US political veteran with years of diplomatic experience, is best known for brokering the 1995 peace agreement that ended three years of war in Bosnia.

Holbrooke, on accepting the position, said he had been given a "daunting assignment".

Journalist and analyst Roy Gutman told Al Jazeera that the fact that Obama appointed Holbrooke as the first such envoy for the region on only his second day in office shows that the issue is a top priority for the Obama administration.
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:D Everyone happy now ?
 
I guess this explains the remaining trouble spots in the middle east.

"With the exception of Hamas or Hezbollah, every single mainstream Islamic party has renounced violence."

Meanwhile, Yahya Pallavicini, an Italian imam and government adviser, argued for the motion, lamenting the misuse of religion by Islamist political parties who selfishly hijack theology to "legitimise violence" and demonise women.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jan/23/religion-islam-doha-debates
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Found an interisiting article on aljazeera.

Who will save the Palestinians?

Seems like even Hamas realise that terrorism does not work:

Off the record, lets put aside whether or not Palestinians have the moral or legal right to use violence against civilians to resist the occupation. The fact is, it doesn't work,
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When during the past year Hamas leaders talked proudly of making "death an industry of the Palestinian people" and creating "human shields" composed of old people and children, or declared Jewish children everywhere to have become legitimate targets of murder (as did Hamas commander Mahmoud Zahar in a televised broadcast on January 5), the movement helped normalise the intensifying siege on Gaza, playing into deep-seated Western - and particularly American and Israeli - stereotypes of Muslim irrationality and brutality.
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Just like the ' war ', the thread is winding down - and surprisingly it was only suspended once for a few hours and to a great extent it was kept on topic.

From my side, it was very educational and I must have read almost everything Middle East related that Wiki ever published.

If I had to summarise:

There are a few who support 100% the Israeli point of view.

There are a smaller few who support 100% the hamas point of view.

The vast majority think the following:

Lobbing unguided rockets into Israel is wrong and Israel had a right to respond.
The oppression of the general palestinian populace is wrong and it's reasonable to expect those in Gaza etc to be hostile.
We don't have an issue with Israel taking on hamas members.
We do have an issue with collective punishment and the disproportionate response.
We do have an issue with the policy of expendable innocents.
We don't think this solved much if anything at all - and it may have actually aggravated the situation.
Both sides use propaganda and lie openly.

Apart from the nuke Gaza and nuke Israel options, none of us have a solution to the problem.

If I've left anything out or am generally mistaken feel free...
 
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