The Official Astronomy Thread

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
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Oh.. its an event:

A night-sky spectacle not to be missed

December 01 2008 at 09:48AM
By Shaun Smillie

It's a rare phenomenon, and if there are no clouds, everyone in Jozi will be able to witness it.

Tonight riding in the western sky will be what stargazers call a conjunction.

The thin crescent moon will be flanked by two of the brightest objects in the night sky - Venus and Jupiter.

"You can't miss it, you will see it straight after it gets dark and you should be able to see it for two hours after sunset," said the Johannesburg Planetarium's Claire Flanagan.

To find the moon, just look to the west, or to where the sun has just set.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20081201052123555C993041
http://www.earthsky.org/skywatching/

Though I see venus and jupiter in line with the moon.. and not to the side.
 

Crusader

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The conjunction was excellent from my location. Earlier the afternoon I got worried about the clouds that were moving in, but later on they thankfully moved away. There were some low level clouds later on but didn't interfere much with seeing this amazing event.

Early on I was just able to fit Jupiter and the Moon into the 1.5 degree FoV of the refractor, but as it got later the Moon moved away from Jupiter making it impossible to fit them in the same FoV.

Here's a pic I snapped with my Canon A80 on 3x Optical zoom.
Conjunction Photo.
 

Gaz{M}

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Is there any point in buying one of those starter scopes, eg from celestron (the 60AZ or more likely the 90 AZ) It's a 3.5inch refractor on a Alt-Az mount. I'm just dying to start observing from my back yard and I don't want to wait to buy a big 8inch reflector or expensive GOTO scope. My main concern is that the size and bulk of a bigger scope will make me put off using it and in the end I'll just waste my money.

Will i really be wasting money on a R2.5k 3.5in refractor? My main interest is planets and some Messier objects. I also want to try out some astro-photography once I get a decent DSLR. For now, I want to see the main objects in good detail without the schlep of setting up a 45kg rocket launcher.

How easy will it be to sell the 3.5in when i want to upgrade?

My other option is a Celestron 102SLT GOTO scope for about R5.6k It looks portable and the GOTO functionality should make it way more appealing on those bad seeing nights when you can't find many reference stars. Or is an 8in better for the same money? The GOTO scope also means I can do astrophotography tracking from day 1. With the long exposure, aperture isn't that important.

Help me - too much choice is a bad thing!

PS: I'm a bit of a hobby jumper, so once I master something, I get bored with it. Something to keep in mind when giving your advice :)
 

Crusader

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Well, you are go luck. I just got myself a 3.5" refractor as a grab and go scope. The views are pretty good but you can't bring close to the same amount of detail a larger aperture will get you. You'll be able to see most of the Messiers but not whith any great detail.

The entry level goto scopes are a bit iffy go my opinion. Most of them have plastic gears that can strip and break easily. Not to mention that you'll need a power source and the goto might not be all that accurate. They aren't really meant for long exposure photography either - you might get around 30 secs.

With DSO's aperture rules. I'd suggest starting with a 6" dob as a minimum. They go for around R3k and will show much more than the refractor without any false colors or CA.
 

Crusader

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Is there any point in buying one of those starter scopes, eg from celestron (the 60AZ or more likely the 90 AZ) It's a 3.5inch refractor on a Alt-Az mount. I'm just dying to start observing from my back yard and I don't want to wait to buy a big 8inch reflector or expensive GOTO scope. My main concern is that the size and bulk of a bigger scope will make me put off using it and in the end I'll just waste my money.

Will i really be wasting money on a R2.5k 3.5in refractor? My main interest is planets and some Messier objects. I also want to try out some astro-photography once I get a decent DSLR. For now, I want to see the main objects in good detail without the schlep of setting up a 45kg rocket launcher.

How easy will it be to sell the 3.5in when i want to upgrade?

My other option is a Celestron 102SLT GOTO scope for about R5.6k It looks portable and the GOTO functionality should make it way more appealing on those bad seeing nights when you can't find many reference stars. Or is an 8in better for the same money? The GOTO scope also means I can do astrophotography tracking from day 1. With the long exposure, aperture isn't that important.

Help me - too much choice is a bad thing!

PS: I'm a bit of a hobby jumper, so once I master something, I get bored with it. Something to keep in mind when giving your advice :)

Now that I'm back on my PC and not typing via a cellphone I can answer a bit more in depth.

First and foremost, do you have binoculars? If you do take them out every night for a week (weather permitting) and try to hunt down and observe all the binocular objects indicated on the Skymaps.com, sky map list (be sure to get the one for the Southern Hemisphere). If you can stick with it for a week, manage to find everything and at the end of the week still think it's fun you are ready for a telescope. If not then the hobby might not be the thing for you.

Stay away from the beginner scopes, and run away from any you can find in Game or other department stores. They normally tend to be very unstable and unwieldy to use.

A 80mm refractor would be the minimum to start out with. If possible make sure that you can view the scope in person and check out the movement of the mount and the focuser. The last thing you want is a shaky mount since it can ruin the whole experience. Also keep in mind that you will need to be able to smoothly move the scope around to find and track objects. You will need a long tube (long focal length refractor) to cut down on chromatic aberrations (CA) which gives bright objects a purple/yellow fringe. On my 90mm f/10 it's not too bad, but it is visible.

I got a 3.5" refractor as a grab-and-go scope as companion to my XT10. It's a good scope, but I would definitely not recommend it to a beginner as a first and only scope. The mount gets frustrating to use close to zenith (straight up) where it's the best place to view objects since that's where the minimum of atmosphere is between your scope and the object. The EP can also get very low depending on where the scope is pointed. Finding things are slightly more difficult than with a dob since the coarse movement isn't as smooth.

If you go with a refractor make sure that it comes with a stable mount. AZ3 or similar would be best. An EQ mount will be frustrating to use for a beginner and most of the entry level ones aren't very stable. Also be sure to get one with a 90° diagonal and not a 45° one. The 45° diagonal is for terrestrial viewing. I'm unsure how easily you'll be able to sell the refractor if you want to upgrade. You could however keep it as a grab-and-go. As any real enthusiast would tell you - one scope is never enough! Especially if aperture fever kicks in.

I'd pass on the Celestron 102SLT GOTO. It's an entry level GoTo with sometimes very frustrating setup and the tracking and gears would not be adequate for serious astrophotography in any case. You'll be paying the bulk of the price for the tracking, which might break easily and you have the added hassle of using a power supply. Rechargeable batteries apparently don't mix well with GoTo scopes. If you do want a GoTo the minimum would be to go for a Celestron Nexstar 5SE or the like, but they start at around R9000+ and then they still aren't ideal for astrophotography.

I still stick with my recommendation of getting a 6" dob. They might look like rocket launchers but they are the best bang for buck scopes available and extremely easy to use regardless of your experience level. A 6" won't be too heavy as well. They are normally are around 25kg everything included and the views will be well worth it. You can also quite easily carry the OTA and the base separately (the OTA just lifts out of the base, no major assembly required). The dob will have no CA issues, and the 6" will gather much more light than the 3.5" adding to the resolution and providing the option of higher magnifications. On DSO's the larger aperture will definitely show. It's extremely easy to use and will be only slightly more expensive than the refractor.

If you can wait and get an 8" dob that would be the ideal and could very well be the only scope you might want. The 8" is viewed as the ideal beginner scope since the large aperture is enough to bring out details on all of the best DSO's visible.

Hope that clears things up somewhat. Just shout if you have more questions!
 

Gaz{M}

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Wow, crusader - thanks for an excellent reply! I have been researching telescopes for months now and what you say matches a lot of what I've read.

I did buy cheap binoculars as a first step, because it just makes sense to spend R200 and see if you stick with the hobby. Unfortunately, I can't see very much from Centurion. Too many sodium lamps around. But just a moderate zoom in on the Pleiades and Orion Nebula are fascinating to me, if still very dim. I can't find any of the other Messier's from my backyard but i can seem to locate their general position easily enough. On a clear night I can only see a few dozen stars. It's a pity that Jupiter and Venus are mere wobbly white spots in the binocs (10x50). But I think I have more enthusiasm now for astronomy than before i bought the binocs. I agree that any beginner MUST first use some binocs to see if they will stick with the hobby.

You seem strongly against a small refractor - I can see that i'll just end up disappointed. The recommendation of a dob sounds good to me. My concerns are these:

1) How easy is it to find objects with a dob vs an EQ or AltAz? I suppose the major advantage of a dob is that you just push it around with zero setup needed. So it's much less prone to "i want to use my scope but i'm too lazy to spend 45 minutes setting it up"?
2) Are dobs as stable as EQ/Altz?
3) Are the Orion XT8/10 intelliscopes decent? I really don't want to miss out on the astrophotography ability of a tracking scope.
4) How long can you expose the main DSO's with a stationary dob mount before blurring?
5) Any disadvantages of a dob over an EQ/Alt?

You've got me thinking that a 6in dob or 8in might be best for my needs. I tend to be impatient and want to get viewing as quickly as possible.

Are Skywatcher decent? I hear they are made by Synta who also make orion and other brands? They seem to offer better value for money than the "premium" brands.

I will be visiting Sutherland in December (can't wait!). This will be my very first dark sky observing evening with a portable telescope on one of the local private star gazing tours. After that I'm hoping to decide whether the hobby is for me, since views through a telescope in Sutherland are pretty much the best you'll ever get.

Thanks again for the great reply. This thread is turning into a goldmine of info.
 

Crusader

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Still having enthusiasm after using the binoculars for a while is a very good sign. It definitely means that you are ready to take the next step and get a telescope.

I'll try to address your concerns as best I can:

How easy is it to find objects with a dob vs an EQ or Alt-Az:
Since the dob mount is actually an Alt-Az mount they will work in basically the same way. It's extremely easy to locate an object using the dob. You just point it in the right direction and you are set.

I find that using a red dot finder to locate the right area helps a great deal (you see the red dot positioned over the stars as you see them with your naked eyes), especially since you will know the scope is pointed in the exact area before hunting for the actual object. I then move over to the finderscope to narrow it down to the actual object. With the planets you just align them with the red dot and you are set, you don't even need to use the finderscope, but that's because they are bright objects and easily seen naked eye. Once you have located the object you just nudge the scope along to keep it in view. You move it slightly up/down and left/right. It seems strange at first but becomes second nature quickly.

A normal Alt-Az will work in the same way as the dob, but will have some knobs you have to loosen to move it in the coarse direction and then slow motion controls for fine movement. I've found this slightly more tedious than on the dob and the movement is not as fluid. (On my AZ3 mount it goes something like this: Loosen azimuth knob (left/right) and point scope in right direction. Take scope and move it up/down as required (the altitude uses a friction bolt) - not a very smooth motion. Fasten azimuth knob once object is located. Use slow motion controls to keep it in view).

I haven't used an EQ mount myself so won't really be able to comment. From what I've read they require quite a bit of set up and getting it to point in the right direction isn't very intuitive and can be very frustrating for a beginner. Also with Newts the eyepiece will tend to go all over the place forcing you into awkward positions to be able to view. This can be remedied with tube rings which allows you to rotate the OTA. Perhaps someone with an EQ mount can give you more details.

Are dobs as stable as EQ/Altz?
Yes, definitely. In most cases they will be much more stable than either an EQ mount or other Alt-Az mount that uses tripod legs. High quality EQ mounts (read expensive and heavy!) will give you the same stability as a dob. My AZ3 mount is very stable but the dob still wins. Stability will definitely not be a problem with the dob.

Are the Orion XT8/10 intelliscopes decent? I really don't want to miss out on the astrophotography ability of a tracking scope.
The Intelliscopes are excellent scopes and for your light polluted area would be the better option. They do not track however. It's commonly known as a Push-To scope. You enter the object you want to view and the handset shows you in which direction to push the scope until you have the object in view. It doesn't have any motors or gears and only the handset will require batteries. You can also decide not to use the handset and do manual star hopping.

At the time I didn't want to spend the extra cash on the Intelliscope version and rather went for larger aperture, but I'm lucky to have mag 6 skies which makes star hopping easy. For light polluted areas the Intelliscope will be essential, or at least it will make tracking down objects MUCH easier.

How long can you expose the main DSO's with a stationary dob mount before blurring?
A dob isn't really made for photography. You'll be able to get around 3-5 second exposures on bright objects. Definitely not enough for DSO's and even with planets most people take AVI's and then stack the images to bring out details.

That being said many people want to try their hand at astrophotography when they start out, but it really is a hobby in itself and to be able to do anything decent you will need to fork out a large amount of cash, especially if DSO's are your target. You will need a very stable EQ mount with extremely good tracking. The mount alone will set you back around R10000+. Then you need to add the scope, an auto guider, filters etc. and all the other gear required. It can get extremely expensive very quickly.

I'd stay away from astrophotography and stick to visual viewing at first. Once you have mastered visual observing and still want to try astrophotography you can start saving up and build a astrophotography capable rig. You'll also need to find a very dark site, since light pollution and long exposures don't really mix. Just remember that aside from a few "budget" astrophotographers most of them image using gear that's worth upwards of R100k and taking exposures of 45 min or longer.

Any disadvantages of a dob over an EQ/Alt?
Cons:
No tracking and GoTo, but depending on the owner that isn't really a problem as such.
Field rotation is visible - the object will appear to rotate if you keep it in view for extended periods. EQ mounts don't have this problem, that's one of the reasons they are needed for astrophotography.

Pros:
Very stable.
Easy to use.
Comfortable. EP stays in the same position at top of the scope. Add a comfortable stool and you are set for extended viewing.
Can view exactly at zenith (straight up) although movement is sligthly more difficult. Other Alt-Az and EQ mounts limit how close to zenith you can observe.
Minimum set up time. Put the mount down. Add the OTA and let scope reach ambient temps. Takes less than 5 minutes and you are set to go (not taking the time to reach ambient into account, but that will be the same regardless of the mount).
No power needed and no gears that can break.

Are Skywatcher decent?
Yes, they are. My refractor is a SkyWatcher and the build quality is very good. I prefer Orion for the scope itself, since they have some slightly better refinements, but you will be just as happy with a SkyWatcher telescope and they do tend to cost a whole lot less. The SkyWatcher line most likely use exactly the same optics than the Orion scopes so from that point they will be the same.

My red dot finders and Zoom EP are also from Skywatcher and I'm happy with them.
 

Kalvaer

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The SkyWatcher line most likely use exactly the same optics than the Orion scopes so from that point they will be the same.
Ayup... I am sure everyone will agree here that optics are more important than anything else. The other gadgets and things are all nice to haves, but if your optics are up to **** then its pointless.

The fact that Synta make all the optics for the some of the "premium" brands as well was the biggest selling point for me and I have never looked back when considering value for money.
 

Gaz{M}

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Thanks again Crusader - A wealth of good information!

Now I just need the dollar to go back to 7...
 

Crusader

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Don't we all need a stronger Rand. Too bad I'm flat broke now since I have to replace my PC's PSU, CPU and Mobo after a power spike killed it. Luckily the graphics card seems to have survived.

So definitely no astro related purchases in my future.
 
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