The Palestinian Papers

[lived666]

Pretty much. I suspect mossad is behind most of the leaks, based only on the impact the leaks are having.

You think so, at the moment I can't see any advantage to Israel? Actually it will probably make things harder for future negotiations, though there haven't been any real surprises, just Al-jazeera extra dramatising everything.
The main issue here is that both sides were talking, just no leaders on any side with the strength of Begin and Sadat to take the one step further.

 

[Fader4]

No, the state of Israel was founded through UN resolution 181 which called for an end to the British mandate of Palestine and the formation of two states. We're still waiting for the second one.

The state of Israel is a democracy, has a coalition government and allows freedom of religion. It sits at 15 on the Human development index (Very high).

a un resolution cannot create a state, it laid the groundwork to be sure but Israel still had to conform to the legal requirements for statehood in terms of international law before it could be considered a state, and you continue to insist that Israel is a democracy.... i am not denying this however this does not preclude the existence of widespread institutional and societal racism and for you to deny the possibility that minorities may be discriminated against is silly, i suppose all those claims by minorities and Israeli NGOs which work to protect minority right are hogwash then? these are the same NGOs the Zionist are trying to suppress btw.... suppose they are imagining things as well

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...g-israel-intolerance-20110123,0,4588504.story

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ffair-shows-prevalent-racism-in-israel-1.8578

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/041210Lendman.shtml

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.8ce3a15f9d99ca997a190449c8ee77b2.3a1

http://wallwritings.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/israels-revolting-marriage-law-faces-a-court-challenge/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4012866,00.html

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/46489

all interesting reads, of course these people making a stink about racism and discrimination are all imagining things since Israel is so awesomely "democratic", no way they could do any wrong, right?

 

[Fader4]

Pretty much. I suspect mossad is behind most of the leaks, based only on the impact the leaks are having.

these leaks are bad for Israel and the us, it shows that Israel is unwilling to seriously negotiate the issue and it tarnishes the credibility of the US as a "peace partner" however the biggest loser in this is the PA and i can assure you Israel and the US do not want to see the PA fall, the PA is Israels puppet in the Westbank after all and with the fall of the pro western Tunisian dictatorship and the growing threat of democracy in the middle east the last the the US and Israel would want is for its Palestinian lapdog to be ousted. The most likely source of the leaks are from someone in the Palestinian camp, perhaps rogue elements in the intelligence community.

 

[lived666]

I dont see demonstrations in Israel by the Israeli Arabs, I see them in Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon......
It is widely known that the Israeli Arabs have more rights in Israel than in any Arab or Muslim country.
If there are cases of discrimination then it would be illegal and there are courts that will deal with that.
I'm sure there are case of racism, happens in every society. Don't try and make out that Jews are readily accepted in Arab Israeli towns as well, racism exists and works both ways, but not at state level.

 

[TheHiveMind]

these leaks are bad for Israel and the us, it shows that Israel is unwilling to seriously negotiate the issue and it tarnishes the credibility of the US as a "peace partner" however the biggest loser in this is the PA and i can assure you Israel and the US do not want to see the PA fall, the PA is Israels puppet in the Westbank after all and with the fall of the pro western Tunisian dictatorship and the growing threat of democracy in the middle east the last the the US and Israel would want is for its Palestinian lapdog to be ousted. The most likely source of the leaks are from someone in the Palestinian camp, perhaps rogue elements in the intelligence community.

Israel can't afford a two state solution. The worse the US looks, the more power and influence Israel has in their alliance.

 

[Fader4]

I dont see demonstrations in Israel by the Israeli Arabs, I see them in Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon......
It is widely known that the Israeli Arabs have more rights in Israel than in any Arab or Muslim country.
If there are cases of discrimination then it would be illegal and there are courts that will deal with that.
I'm sure there are case of racism, happens in every society. Don't try and make out that Jews are readily accepted in Arab Israeli towns as well, racism exists and works both ways, but not at state level.

wrong. go read.

 

[lived666]

Israel can't afford a two state solution. The worse the US looks, the more power and influence Israel has in their alliance.

I disagree, they can't afford a one state solution.

 

[lived666]

A few newspaper articles are not proof of state racism. Laws are, please show me the Israeli state laws that discriminate against arab Israelis.

 

[Fudzy]

A few newspaper articles are not proof of state racism. Laws are, please show me the Israeli state laws that discriminate against arab Israelis.

Where can you find the laws? Would be an interesting read.

 

[lived666]

Where can you find the laws? Would be an interesting read.

I'm guessing here would be a good place to start:
http://www.justice.gov.il/mojeng

 

[Fader4]

A few newspaper articles are not proof of state racism. Laws are, please show me the Israeli state laws that discriminate against arab Israelis.

ok

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/racist-marriage-law-upheld-by-israel-478291.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8552816.stm

there you go, happy reading.

also familiarize yourself with the concept of institutional racism while you are at it .

 

[lived666]

ok

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/racist-marriage-law-upheld-by-israel-478291.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8552816.stm

there you go, happy reading.

also familiarize yourself with the concept of institutional racism while you are at it .

Looks like you are getting desperate and clutching at straws.
All you have shown above is a law that prohibits all Israelis, regardless of race, colour, religion, be they Jewish, Muslim, Mormons from living in Israel if they marry someone from an enemy state or the Palestine territories.

Now if you want state racism, look at egypt, that has banned egyptians from marrying Israelis and strips them of their citizenship.

Now once again on this slightly OT quest, please show me the state laws that discriminate against arab Israelis only. I can only find laws that discriminate against jews in Israel, but not against arabs

 

[porchrat]

Looks like you are getting desperate and clutching at straws.
All you have shown above is a law that prohibits all Israelis, regardless of race, colour, religion, be they Jewish, Muslim, Mormons from living in Israel if they marry someone from an enemy state or the Palestine territories.

While I agree that it isn't necessarily racism it is still clearly ethnicism and isn't a very savoury law.

Now if you want state racism, look at egypt, that has banned egyptians from marrying Israelis and strips them of their citizenship.

Pretty much the same thing as Israel kicking people out of the country for marrying a Palestinian.

 

[Palimino]

You think so, at the moment I can't see any advantage to Israel? Actually it will probably make things harder for future negotiations, though there haven't been any real surprises, just Al-jazeera extra dramatising everything.
The main issue here is that both sides were talking, just no leaders on any side with the strength of Begin and Sadat to take the one step further.

Put a hypothetical intelligence operation by Israel in + and – columns:

Disadvantages to the West (-)

#1 Embarrassment of allies and Israel.

Advantages to the West (+)

#1 Dissention in the Arab world.
#2 A real chance of seeing the PA disbanded (one of the better Israeli enemies but still an enemy – no choice).
#3 A cheap, no-risk operation with no-one being killed and good security.
#4 It doesn’t matter if the source of the leak is found to be Israel. Many Arabs (although they won’t admit it) will consider it a service.
#5 It is truthful and allows Israel to assume the ‘transparency’ moral high ground.
#6 It gets the PA out the picture (where they may be forced to make concessions) and allows Hamas to speak for Palestinians. Israel needn’t hold back from kicking the arse of murdering thugs.

And so on. On balance, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I suspect that Aljazeera is embarrassed and angered by the behaviour of a cause they were sympathetic to and regarded as adult. They will report honestly, they have no option. The papers exist and are 99% sure to be accurate. They cannot introduce bias or spin. They have a reputation of an ‘unbiased’ TV station to maintain.

 

[alloytoo]

a un resolution cannot create a state, it laid the groundwork to be sure but Israel still had to conform to the legal requirements for statehood in terms of international law before it could be considered a state

The UN & other countries recognise it as a state. Clearly it was not so difficult that the Palestianians couldn't do it. (It should have been easier for them, they wouldn't have had to fight a war against 4 Arab nations on day one)

and you continue to insist that Israel is a democracy.... i am not denying this however this does not preclude the existence of widespread institutional and societal racism and for you to deny the possibility that minorities may be discriminated against is silly,

I didn't deny that racism exists (or the posibility that racism exists). Where did you suck that from.

I merely pointed out the rights of Israeli citizens.

i suppose all those claims by minorities and Israeli NGOs which work to protect minority right are hogwash then? these are the same NGOs the Zionist are trying to suppress btw.... suppose they are imagining things as well

You're the one who imagine things, thats twice now you've made unsupported assertions or claims about my position.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...g-israel-intolerance-20110123,0,4588504.story

Israel's deputy state prosecutor, Shai Nitzan opened a criminal inquiry into racist threats and hate speech expressed on two Israel-based Facebook pages with statements in Hebrew such as "Death to Arabs."

Ooh look institutional racism.....no wait.....

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ffair-shows-prevalent-racism-in-israel-1.8578

some more commentary

Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar warned that institutes which will continue to refuse Ethiopian students will suffer sanctions such as withholding funds and licenses.

Former education minister and Knesset member Yuli Tamir said, "Petah Tikva has been turning out to be a system that closes its gates and fails to provide the Ethiopian students with equality, for many years now. Schools need to realize that this is a basic condition for the opening of the school year and that they need to embrace an open policy."

Ooh look institutional racism.....no wait.....

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/041210Lendman.shtml

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.8ce3a15f9d99ca997a190449c8ee77b2.3a1

http://wallwritings.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/israels-revolting-marriage-law-faces-a-court-challenge/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4012866,00.html

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/46489

all interesting reads, of course these people making a stink about racism and discrimination are all imagining things since Israel is so awesomely "democratic", no way they could do any wrong, right?

Interesting hate pieces most of them.

It's clear, given the multicultural nature of Israel, like many countries that tensions and racism do arise. No one ever denied that.

It's also clear that Israel has a robust democracy which includes many views.

What's not clear, nor have you demonstrated, is institutional rascism, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[alloytoo]

While I agree that it isn't necessarily racism it is still clearly ethnicism and isn't a very savoury law.
Pretty much the same thing as Israel kicking people out of the country for marrying a Palestinian.

In November a girl in my office, a citizen, got married.

She married overseas, and has since returned. Her husband has not joined her, as he is not a citizen, and is not permitted to enter the country and work.

All of this in evil apartheid New Zealand.

All around the world, immigration laws around marriage are being tightened up. Don't think Israel is unique in this regard.

 

[porchrat]

In November a girl in my office, a citizen, got married.

She married overseas, and has since returned. Her husband has not joined her, as he is not a citizen, and is not permitted to enter the country and work.

All of this in evil apartheid New Zealand.

All around the world, immigration laws around marriage are being tightened up. Don't think Israel is unique in this regard.

Whether they're unique or not is not the point. Quite frankly I don't know why people think this is some sort of awesome defence. "Lots of other people are doing it therefore it must be OK" basically sums up that insane little nugget of reasoning. :wtf:

Besides I notice you didn't give the reason he is not permitted to enter and work in the country. At no point did I say a country shouldn't prevent you from entering after all that is what a visa is for. A sovereign nation's government gets to decide who to let in and not let in. However that decision must be made on an individual basis and made for a good reason. To argue that all people from country X can't enter for no other reason other than they come from country X is not something I want to encourage. To deny a person entry because they come from country X is as far as I can see, ethnicism.

 

[Palimino]

I suspect that Aljazeera is embarrassed and angered by the behaviour of a cause they were sympathetic to and regarded as adult.

They are also weaseling desperately to get out of crap. The PA and Israel (smoke/fire?) both suspected the Emir of Qatar (where Aljazeera is based) of supporting Hamas. Livni cancelled a trip to Qatar because of their Hamas funding. This meshes with their appallingly biased coverage of the war on Gaza where the Israeli POV was given minimal credence. Aljazeera is an Arabic TV station and it would be naive to think they wouldn’t ‘spin’ coverage in Gaza’s favour, but their blatant bias was sickening.

Their defense seems to be foregrounding the standard mission template of all TV stations – global news...unbiased...accountable – the usual boilerplate that the BBC, CNN, Fox, NBC, etc use and pointing-out how they broke the ‘Palestine Papers’ first. Duh! In media parlance that’s called a ‘scoop’ and if they didn’t, others would.

Squirm baby squirm!

 

[alloytoo]

Whether they're unique or not is not the point. Quite frankly I don't know why people think this is some sort of awesome defence. "Lots of other people are doing it therefore it must be OK" basically sums up that insane little nugget of reasoning. :wtf:

Likewise targeting one country for having immigration laws is equally silly.

Besides I notice you didn't give the reason he is not permitted to enter and work in the country.

Because he's not a citizen, and he doesn't get citizenship or residence simply by virtual of a marriage certificate.

At no point did I say a country shouldn't prevent you from entering after all that is what a visa is for. A sovereign nation's government gets to decide who to let in and not let in. However that decision must be made on an individual basis and made for a good reason. To argue that all people from country X can't enter for no other reason other than they come from country X is not something I want to encourage. To deny a person entry because they come from country X is as far as I can see, ethnicism.

It is however not and again not unique to Israel. It's practiced by many countries based on a variety of considerations, including ethnicity, labour requirements, investment etc.

Saudi Arabia, for example, issues some visas only to Muslims, citizens of Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and the Sultanate of Oman don't need visas.

Holders of Israeli passports, and person holding passports with a Israeli border stamp are denied entry to SA.

 

[grayston]

A few newspaper articles are not proof of state racism. Laws are, please show me the Israeli state laws that discriminate against arab Israelis.

I think the world learned from South Africa that legislating racial discrimination is a sure way of destroying your reputation.