The Palestinian Papers

[porchrat]

Likewise targeting one country for having immigration laws is equally silly.

I would never target a country for immigration laws. I would however target a country for immigration laws that are based on ethnic lines. That is ethnicism.

Because he's not a citizen, and he doesn't get citizenship or residence simply by virtual of a marriage certificate.

What of working visas?

The answer doesn't fit "You're not allowed in to work" "why not?" "because you're not a citizen and only citizens can work in a country... we don't have a system whereby people that aren't citizens can reside in the country and work". Sorry but your story is starting to sound fishy to me.

I repeat my question: Why was he not permitted to enter and work in the country?

It is however not and again not unique to Israel. It's practiced by many countries based on a variety of considerations, including ethnicity, labour requirements, investment etc.

Again this "everyone else does it therefore it's OK" thing. It isn't a defence. If it's wrong then having more countries do it doesn't suddenly make it right.

Saudi Arabia, for example, issues some visas only to Muslims, citizens of Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and the Sultanate of Oman don't need visas.

Wow never thought I'd see the day where someone tries to hold up Saudi Arabia as an example of tolerance and the fight against ethnicism.

Holders of Israeli passports, and person holding passports with a Israeli border stamp are denied entry to SA.

and that is wrong. It is ethnicism. Telling me "Quick look LOOK! South Africa does it too!!! It must be OK then!" is once again not a defence. You're just demonstrating other nations that are guilty of it, not demonstrating how it isn't ethnicism.

 

[za1]

I would never target a country for immigration laws. I would however target a country for immigration laws that are based on ethnic lines. That is ethnicism.

Yet the israeli law applies only to marriages of people from an enemy state to Israel , so whats the problem with that?? Makes sense, how is that ethnicism?
It does not apply to marriages from any other Arab country that has peace with Israel or any other country in the world, just the ones that see Israel as an enemy.

But wasn't this a thread to do with Al Jazeera?

Holders of Israeli passports, and person holding passports with a Israeli border stamp are denied entry to SA.

HUH? which SA is that, not South Africa, maybe Saudi Barbaria, but that would be SB I suppose?

 

[porchrat]

Yet the israeli law applies only to marriages of people from an enemy state to Israel , so whats the problem with that?? Makes sense, how is that ethnicism?
It does not apply to marriages from any other Arab country that has peace with Israel or any other country in the world, just the ones that see Israel as an enemy.

An ethnic group is any group whose members identify with each other through a common ancestry or culture. It doesn't have to just mean "arab". Yes arab could be seen as an ethnic group but it can be far more detailed than that.

My point is merely that we cannot condemn an individual because the government of the country he/she comes from doesn't like the government of the country you come from.

But wasn't this a thread to do with Al Jazeera?

Who knows my comment was supposed to be a short off-topic side point and then certain people that seem to think we shouldn't say anything nasty about Israel pounced on it and tried to tell me how lots of countries do it... you know... as though that makes it OK.

Quite frankly I don't care which country the law comes from it isn't a law I can agree with.

 

[noxibox]

I repeat my question: Why was he not permitted to enter and work in the country?

He certainly is allowed in, but it isn't automatic, and probably never has been. An application is required and assuming he has no recent criminal record or involvement with terrorists he'll get in. If they'd both been foreigners, then he would have been included with her original application and thus allowed in if she was accepted.

 

[alloytoo]

I would never target a country for immigration laws. I would however target a country for immigration laws that are based on ethnic lines. That is ethnicism.

Then you should target many countries.

What of working visas?

The answer doesn't fit "You're not allowed in to work" "why not?" "because you're not a citizen and only citizens can work in a country...

Or resident, or hold a work permit.

we don't have a system whereby people that aren't citizens can reside in the country and work". Sorry but your story is starting to sound fishy to me.

Or resident, or hold a work permit, however being married to a citizen doesn't automatically grant you a workpermit, nor does even a job offer.

I repeat my question: Why was he not permitted to enter and work in the country?

Because he is not a citizen, and his marriage to a citzen does not automatically convey, Citizenship, residency, or even a workpermit.

He has to apply for an open workpermit, and immigration will demand evidence of his marriage's validity (beyond a marraige certificate). It's not automatic, and he can still be refused entry. (I read the other day about a woman being issued with deportation order dispite having children with a citizen.)

He could enter the country on a visitors visa, and he could look for work, but no company will hire him without a workpermit, and work permits are usually issued for a specific job.

Again this "everyone else does it therefore it's OK" thing. It isn't a defence. If it's wrong then having more countries do it doesn't suddenly make it right.

Wow never thought I'd see the day where someone tries to hold up Saudi Arabia as an example of tolerance and the fight against ethnicism.

and that is wrong. It is ethnicism. Telling me "Quick look LOOK! South Africa does it too!!! It must be OK then!" is once again not a defence. You're just demonstrating other nations that are guilty of it, not demonstrating how it isn't ethnicism.

I'm not trying to demonstrate that it isn't ethnicism (that's another debate), I'm questioning the OP targeting of Israel, when it isn't unique, or even the worst (IMHO).

I'm more than willing to debate the validity of ethnicism in immigration and border control policies in general, and I suspect we'll agree on many issues.

Israel may come into that debate, but to target Israel here, as an "evil apartheid state" on the basis of a common international practice is, I'm sure you'll admit, a double standard.

 

[alloytoo]

HUH? which SA is that, not South Africa, maybe Saudi Barbaria, but that would be SB I suppose?

Saudi, though I'm sure elements of the ANC would love to impliment it too.

 

[porchrat]

Then you should target many countries.

Not in a thread dealing specifically with Israel. That would be horrifically off topic. If you wish to start a thread about that I suggest you create one. That is after all how forums work.

Or resident, or hold a work permit, however being married to a citizen doesn't automatically grant you a workpermit, nor does even a job offer.

Yes I never said it did.

Because he is not a citizen, and his marriage to a citzen does not automatically convey, Citizenship, residency, or even a workpermit.

He has to apply for an open workpermit, and immigration will demand evidence of his marriage's validity (beyond a marraige certificate). It's not automatic, and he can still be refused entry. (I read the other day about a woman being issued with deportation order dispite having children with a citizen.)

He could enter the country on a visitors visa, and he could look for work, but no company will hire him without a workpermit, and work permits are usually issued for a specific job.

Oh so he wasn't actively denied a workpermit etc. because of the country he comes from. So... not the same thing at all then. Oh well I'm glad we sorted that mess out.

I'm not trying to demonstrate that it isn't ethnicism (that's another debate), I'm questioning the OP targeting of Israel, when it isn't unique, or even the worst (IMHO).

I'm more than willing to debate the validity of ethnicism in immigration and border control policies in general, and I suspect we'll agree on many issues.

Israel may come into that debate, but to target Israel here, as an "evil apartheid state" on the basis of a common international practice is, I'm sure you'll admit, a double standard.

I never targeted it as an evil apartheid state. Someone mentioned the law and all I said was that the particular law is not something that is savoury and essentially amounts to ethnicism. You then completely ignore that and somehow try to dance around it by demonstrating that there are other countries that do it. It was totally irrelevant. Do you even have a point? I know I do but somehow I'm failing to see yours.

 

[alloytoo]

Not in a thread dealing specifically with Israel. That would be horrifically off topic. If you wish to start a thread about that I suggest you create one. That is after all how forums work.

I suggested another thread for these issues, precisely because they are not unique to Israel.

Yes I never said it did.

Nor did I suggested you did, I was merely emphasising a point.

Oh so he wasn't actively denied a workpermit etc. because of the country he comes from. So... not the same thing at all then. Oh well I'm glad we sorted that mess out.

To the best of my knowledge his application in in process, however it's worth pointing out that some people do not have to go through this process, their right to live and work IS granted automatically.

I never targeted it as an evil apartheid state.

I don't recall saying you did.

Someone mentioned the law and all I said was that the particular law is not something that is savoury and essentially amounts to ethnicism. You then completely ignore that and somehow try to dance around it by demonstrating that there are other countries that do it.

Actually I acknowledged that it amounts to ethnicism and signalled that it was a valid debate.

It was totally irrelevant. Do you even have a point? I know I do but somehow I'm failing to see yours.

My point is Fader's double standards.

 

[porchrat]

To the best of my knowledge his application in in process, however it's worth pointing out that some people do not have to go through this process, their right to live and work IS granted automatically.

Then I request that in the future you not try to use this as some sort of situation worthy of comparison with an official policy of denying entry into a country because of the country you come from. Lets be honest now it isn't even close to the same thing.

Actually I acknowledged that it amounts to ethnicism and signalled that it was a valid debate.

After trying to fob it off with a list of the few other human rights poster-child nations that practice similar policies... you know... like Saudi Arabia.

My point is Fader's double standards.

This is a thread about Israel. Surely we shouldn't be required to mention all the other nations that implement these ethnicist policies when discussing Israel. If this is what you want then we're going to be here for a long long time. Unless old Fader actually said that other nations implementing the same policy were not ethnicist I fail to see what you're talking about.

 

[Fader4]

My point is Fader's double standards

We were discussing Israel specifically, i fail to see my "double standards", dont make accusations you cannot substantiate.

 

[alloytoo]

Then I request that in the future you not try to use this as some sort of situation worthy of comparison with an official policy of denying entry into a country because of the country you come from. Lets be honest now it isn't even close to the same thing.

Actually it's exactly the same thing, merely different degrees.

After trying to fob it off with a list of the few other human rights poster-child nations that practice similar policies... you know... like Saudi Arabia.

Offering a valid geo-political comparision.

This is a thread about Israel. Surely we shouldn't be required to mention all the other nations that implement these ethnicist policies when discussing Israel. If this is what you want then we're going to be here for a long long time. Unless old Fader actually said that other nations implementing the same policy were not ethnicist I fail to see what you're talking about.

*Sigh* He failed to offer valid geo-political comparision and in doing so voided any value judgement that could be used to condemn Israel.

Here's a scenario:

If India declares war on South Africa.

South Africa bars it's borders to holders of Indian passports, including spouses of SA citizens.

They do not however alter the status of South Africans of Indian descent in any way.

Is the border control law ethnic based because they are barring Indians, or is it nationality based?

 

[alloytoo]

We were discussing Israel specifically, i fail to see my "double standards", dont make accusations you cannot substantiate.

Demonstrate how your allegations make Israel substantively worse than other nations in the geo-political area, or condemn countries in the geo-political area who practice similer policies.

 

[Fudzy]

I think it would be a good wake up call for anyone who supports Israel's suppression to travel from Tel Aviv to Bethlehem using a car with a Palestinian license and then come back using an Israeli license, completely different set of roads and infrastructure. It's the equivalent of driving from Ballito to Amazintoti via Pietermaritzburg.

 

[porchrat]

Actually it's exactly the same thing, merely different degrees.

No it isn't. One is an official policy of denying access to a particular group and another is just some dude waiting for his application to be processed. It isn't the same thing at all.

Offering a valid geo-political comparision.

Which has no effect on the nature of what is occurring and the validity of the criticism and so is ultimately meaningless.

*Sigh* He failed to offer valid geo-political comparision and in doing so voided any value judgement that could be used to condemn Israel.

Which he doesn't need to do. Neither did I. I just recognise a nasty law when I see one. I don't care which country implements it. It isn't double standards unless you actually say that other countries implementing the same law are not being as bad as Israel. What I'm saying is to have a case of double standards he actually has to apply that 'standard' to some other entity in a different way. Considering he applied it to NO OTHER ENTITY there can be no double standard. After all remember the word "double" indicates that there needs to be more than one... it really isn't that hard complicated a concept to grasp.

 

[za1]

I think it would be a good wake up call for anyone who supports Israel's suppression to travel from Tel Aviv to Bethlehem using a car with a Palestinian license and then come back using an Israeli license, completely different set of roads and infrastructure. It's the equivalent of driving from Ballito to Amazintoti via Pietermaritzburg.

The Palestinians are a hostile nation, their cars have the tendency on occasion to go boooom, its even impressive the Israelis actually let a car with a Palestinian licence to enter Israel, regardless of the hardship, ku**** to them.

 

[Fudzy]

The Palestinians are a hostile nation, their cars have the tendency on occasion to go boooom, its even impressive the Israelis actually let a car with a Palestinian licence to enter Israel, regardless of the hardship, ku**** to them.

That's a rather broad, sweeping statement? What makes you think they couldn't load an Israeli car (that can be in both areas) with explosives?

 

[za1]

That's a rather broad, sweeping statement? What makes you think they couldn't load an Israeli car (that can be in both areas) with explosives?

sshhhhhh, don't give them ideas.:wtf:

how is it a broad sweeping statement? Fact is Palestinians are a hostile group, and get treated as such. Stop the killing of innocent tourists and civillian Israelis, but if you don't, then don't boo hoo hoo that you spend hours at check points.

 

[Mineer]

sshhhhhh, don't give them ideas.:wtf:

how is it a broad sweeping statement? Fact is Palestinians are a hostile group, and get treated as such. Stop the killing of innocent tourists and civillian Israelis, but if you don't, then don't boo hoo hoo that you spend hours at check points.

Round and round we go the Palestinians are reacting to be forced into a open air prison camp e.g. "check points" what else is this system except a jail, these check point are in contravention of international law btw

 

[za1]

Round and round we go the Palestinians are reacting to be forced into a open air prison camp e.g. "check points" what else is this system except a jail, these check point are in contravention of international law btw

last time I checked so was the Palestinians shooting missiles at cities, killing tourists, shooting pregnant woman, blowing up buses, restaurants, night clubs and so on and so on.

weird how check points bother you but the above doesn't.

 

[noxibox]

Fact is Palestinians are a hostile group, and get treated as such.

Fact is Israelis are a hostile group, and get treated as such.