ZCFOutkast
Expert Member
He's like SvZ. Too slow for ODIs&T20s. Same applies to Bavuma!
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The Proteas - Our Team!
- Thread starter MickeyD
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Stefanmuller
Expert Member
Interestingly, in all of AB's 19 ODI centuries, he has scored them at more than a run a ball. That is pretty good.
AthenianOwl
Executive Member
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Lonwabo Tsotsobe's last ODI for the Proteas:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/648653.html
View attachment 185730
Sigh!
He's a joke.
sand_man
Honorary Master
Uh, I see, so the criteria on which you judge has changed again. He's now made to look better than he is, not only because of where he bats but also because the bowlers are rubbish! Got it...
Lara? Not so much...
Sachin and Chanderpaul quite a bit. Bradman? Well, no he didn't play any ODI in his day.
Ponting? Not so much...
Dravid? Not so much...
Kumar? Not so much....
AB? Actually he has so far scored more runs opening than Kumar, Ponting and Dravid...
Attachments
sand_man
Honorary Master
Okay, good, so based on this criteria let's see who else we can eliminate from the list of greats...
Steve Waugh...
View attachment 185900
Graeme Pollock (heard of him, he used to play a little, probably before your time)...
Allan Border...
Greg Chappell...
Viv Richards (Sir to you)...
Imran Khan....
Richard Hadlee (Sir to you)....
I've got plenty of reputable quotes if you like.
Still waiting for the links where you claim to have lauded AB's knock on another forum... tick tock... tick tock... You can keep your 'reputable quotes'.
ZCFOutkast
Expert Member
The problem with you is that you don't read my posts. You want to disprove them but you're not keen on understanding them, merely gleaning through. Which is understandable if like most you don't think much of them or considering the length at times, perhaps naturally you have a general averseness to reading.
Whatever the case might be, as a result, you're fixed on opening yet I've been referring to the top 3 - which includes openers, hence my references to Ponting, Sanga, Steve Smith&Kohli batting there. All the more reason why I said AB over QdK(1/2) or Faf(3) - top 3 the bare minimum for him against the quality of bowlers doing the rounds these days.
Secondly, you're using number of runs as opposed to average. A lot of my posts have referred to averages instead of runs. If I were to use runs then countless Irish, Zimbabweans&Bangladeshis who've been playing ODIs for years now would be ahead of a lot of these batsmen. Poor average while scoring those runs is what led to AB being dropped, so why your graphs are picking that instead is beyond me.
I was very careful to say certain players opened at the "tailend" of their careers. That includes Ponting&Mahela. Obviously Mahela much more than Ponting but the bottomline is they didn't have poor averages or starts there like AB (or QdK&now RR), prior experience conceded.
The typical cricket article always dissects the attacks most batsmen face. Indians will say their batsmen were superior to the great Australian side of the 90s&00s because the AUS batsmen didn't have to face their own attack. Same argument with the great WI side before. SA have been consistent, at various times on par with ENG, AUS&IND after the great AUS side got weaker due to retirements. But they've had the better attack so those same three sides argue the same thing.
So I don't know why you feel the need write off what I'm saying when it's the norm.
When someone asks me, Bradman aside, and post late 80s, who's the greatest ever Test batsman that you've watched I say Ponting. I qualify that by saying no other batsman has been dominant over a number of cricket years as much as he has in terms of most hundreds in a calendar year, or most runs in a calendar year. When he was the best he was lone, without equal. They took turns to stand next to him over that period but none was his equal. At their best the others were on par with someone else, while with him there was no argument. I complete that list as 2.Lara, 3.Sanga, 4.Dravid, 5.Sachin, 6.Kallis.
Someone else's list would look different based on other reasons. I doubt anyone will beat him, but one of Root, Ballance, Williamson, Kohli&Smith etc may well go on to beat those stats over the next 10 years if the number of Tests they play per year continues like now, purely because the bowling is not getting better, not because they are superior batsmen. Opinions vary.
sand_man
Honorary Master
AB currently has an average of 62 batting 3. How does that compare with Ponting, Steve, Kohli etc? (Seeing as we now not focusing on number of runs and just averages).
So you agree, opening at the beginning of your international career is a lot harder than doing it towards the 'tailend'? Or is your theory the more experienced you get the poorer you play?
Seeing as Australia are generally the benchmark let's make a quick comparison of home and away ODI averages for some of the players on your all time greats list, against Australia....
Dravid
Home 28.31
Away 29.46
Sachin
Home 52.03
Away 30.83
Sangakkara
Home 47.82
Away 41.04
Lara
Home 48.0
Away 36.69
AB
Home 46.78
Away 66.0
Anyway, still waiting for your link where you've lauded AB's world breaking knock on a public platform... Truth is the only time you will comment is when he fails as that is the nature of your prejudice and bias. Same way you wait, hope and pray for the Boks to fail so too you wait, hope and pray for the Protea's to fail. Sad and pathetic. We live in this country together, we all in the same boat. Why do you wish the boat would sink? Are you even a citizen of this country? I find it hard to believe...
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ZCFOutkast
Expert Member
Still guilty of neglecting to read my comments. Look back and you'll notice that I expressly said - AB may have struggled opening but he's done well at number 3, so why doesn't he continue there.
I specifically said in "Tests"
I have been commenting on AB for a long time. I say the same thing to Australians about Michael Clarke on Cricinfo, I say the same to the English fans about Root sliding down then suddenly looking like a world beater. You're personalising this to AB, Proteas and now Boks, which is the problem.
This is a typical case of me rightly arguing to a Liverpool or Chelsea fan why it was ok and not such a big loss for Gerrard and Lamps to leave their respective teams.
Preconceptions don't help. You're so hell bent on your inclinations that you're missing the comment, misreading a lot, and responding to absent questions.
Play the ball not the man. One guy above with that popular German striker's name simply said something along these lines "He likes AB batting at 4. Amla needs time to bat through accumulating in the process, Faf is settled&can't accelerate like, AB so he mus bat higher than him, so AB is fine there". I noted his point but reponded that if he's thinking that way then with rule changes, 10 overs batting powerplay AB can surely cash in more based on his reasoning. No fighting.
The other guy, maybe a bit dismissive but his reasoning was "AB has got nothing to prove". Simple! That really is the gist of my comments about AB really and he got it spot on. I say he's got something to prove and give reasons why, he says no and gives reasons why.
The one thing that you never want is when people discuss the greatest batsmen, the moment you hear something like "greatest middle order batsman", already you've been gently discounted from the equation of the true greats. I fear he'll belong to that category.
sand_man
Honorary Master
My bad, I thought this was the Official ICC 2015 CWC thread.
Dravid
Home 35.71
Away 41.64
Sachin
Home 56.91
Away 53.21
Sangakkara
Home 30.45
Away 60.33
Lara
Home 66.05
Away 41.97
AB
Home 51.05
Away 44.73
Yes, we know! All negative! You simply can't bring yourself to say anything positive about him, can you?
Quite the opposite! You the one going off on a tangent with soccer analogies etc etc etc I'm posting stats! Indisputable, hard, cold stats where you consistently change the criteria for your argument!
Yet look on any "greats" list and you'll find the names of Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Graeme Pollock, Garfield Sobers...
AirWolf
Honorary Master
AB is already being touted as one of the best batsman in the history of the game, and nothing an outcast says is going to change that 
.
.
sand_man
Honorary Master
I'm always reluctant to start calling a guy a legend when he is theoretically barely half way through his international career but the fact that many already compare him with the greats is a testimony to his greatness. May he go from strength to strength! I sometimes watch and think, "has he already played his best cricket"?AB is already being touted as one of the best batsman in the history of the game, and nothing an outcast says is going to change that
This is quite an interesting article (but probably written by a ex-player who knows nothing :wtf
...http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...ost-valuable-cricketer-around-adam-gilchrist/
Stefanmuller
Expert Member
I'm always reluctant to start calling a guy a legend when he is theoretically barely half way through his international career but the fact that many already compare him with the greats is a testimony to his greatness. May he go from strength to strength! I sometimes watch and think, "has he already played his best cricket"?
This is quite an interesting article (but probably written by a ex-player who knows nothing :wtf
http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...ost-valuable-cricketer-around-adam-gilchrist/
He is clearly getting better and better at the moment. He should play for at least another 5 years if not more. He is very fit and hungry for the game so I would not be surprised if he plays for longer than what Kallis did.
Speaking of Kallis, he is doing pretty well in the Big Bash, would have been great still having him for the WC. What a great.
ZCFOutkast
Expert Member
Indeed, as will Warner, Kohli, Rahane, Smith, Kane Williamson, Root, Mathews, Monimul Haque (Bangladesh) etc!
AB hasn't even had a Test year as dominant as Warner, Smith, Amla or Root. Therein lies the problem. He'll feature in very few stats that one calls up. Total runs per year, highest averages, most centuries in a year etc.
Amla&Warner generally batted higher so we can understand. But when he's being eclipsed by Root, Kohli, Mathews&Smith in more or less the same position as him, plus having played the same number of games then that becomes a problem. They are not standing still you know, and they have youth on their side, so his best a year or two rom now may actually be 5th best.
He will play/bat for more years to come yes, but he'll be making up the numbers not standing out like Dravid, Kallis&Younis Khan later on in their careers.
Believe what you will.
AirWolf
Honorary Master
I pity the fool...
sand_man
Honorary Master
Best test average in a year - taken top 2 years for each player
Warner 2014 - 63.11 and 2011 48.75
Smith 2011 - 72.00 and 2014 81.86
Amla 2010 - 78.06 and 2012 - 70.93
Ab 2010 - 76.62 and 2013 77.75
Quickest ODI 50 in history, quickest ODI 100 in history...
The debate on CricInfo regarding the team and Behardien in it. Thought I would move my thoughts here instead of the Windies thread.
Number 7 appears to be the debate and if Behardien should be in. Personally I do not think his international performances should keep in the starting 11. Domestic wise he is a good player.
Several others have been thrown into the hat for consideration including Albie, McLaren, Peterson and Wiese. (As MickeyD pointed out, Albie and McLaren are injured.)
Alternatively they could put *Dean Elgar in at 7 if the pitch would aid his bowling. His strength with the bat adds tremendous depth.
1. Quinton de Kock
2. Hashim Amla
3. Faf du Plessis
4. AB de Villiers
5. David Miller
6. JP Duminy
7. *
8. Vernon Philander
9. Dale Steyn
10. Morne Morkel
11. Imran Tahir
Number 7 appears to be the debate and if Behardien should be in. Personally I do not think his international performances should keep in the starting 11. Domestic wise he is a good player.
Several others have been thrown into the hat for consideration including Albie, McLaren, Peterson and Wiese. (As MickeyD pointed out, Albie and McLaren are injured.)
Alternatively they could put *Dean Elgar in at 7 if the pitch would aid his bowling. His strength with the bat adds tremendous depth.
1. Quinton de Kock
2. Hashim Amla
3. Faf du Plessis
4. AB de Villiers
5. David Miller
6. JP Duminy
7. *
8. Vernon Philander
9. Dale Steyn
10. Morne Morkel
11. Imran Tahir
AirWolf
Honorary Master
Parnell...