The Proteas - Our Team!

McT said:
Just what I was thinking. So hellbent and one-track that the forum member completely missed the entire content of the post and question. He the esteemed Bush look clever there.
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Stokes' exclusion and reasons for that was as widespread as Zuma's Russia nuclear deal don't you think?
 
Kane Williamson has scored 718 runs in international cricket this year. #WeAreInFebruary

Unbelievable!!!

Yes we "rave" about AB(1984) - who on average bats lower than these guys - but these youngsters Shehzad (1991-23), Williamson (1990-24), Root (1990-24), Smith (1989-25), Kohli (1988-26) & Mathews (1987-27) are all top 10 world class batsmen right now in Test&ODIs (Warner, Rahane, Sharma&Shafiq haven't done too badly either)!

Amla has pretty secured his placed as an ODI all-time great. Sanga has undoubtedly placed himself in the seperate Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Dravid&Kallis mix, I wonder if AB won't be struggling to mentioned amongst those youngsters?

I would've thought he would be a definite T20I great, but he's 51st currently, and I doubt he's ever been in the top 10 T20 rankings.

I don't know, but I get knocked as if to say I'm denying him his due, yet on the whole he's not standout and I seriously fear when he calls time on his career that will show ... and people might be surprised or act surprised. As things stand, I don't think he can even afford to have a single poor season in Tests or ODIs in order to keep up with these determined youngsters long-term.

I used to think the likes of AB & Ross Taylor would be the last of the really top international batsmen seeing as they were going into their 30s but batting is very much alive. It's a pity the Proteas don't have a top class youngster, no disrespect to RR(25)&QdK(22), but I think Stiaan van Zyl(27) might just be the one.

Problem is Rilee&Stiaan are already over 25 and are novices compared to those other guys, while QdK the best hope after them will have to give up the gloves and focus solely on batting at #5 in Tests&ODIs for the next 3 seasons, which I don't see happening. Will probably get dropped rather along the way.

Do the Proteas selectors have a problem with trusting youth?
 
ZCFOutkast said:
Kane Williamson has scored 718 runs in international cricket this year. #WeAreInFebruary

Unbelievable!!!

Yes we "rave" about AB(1984) - who on average bats lower than these guys - but these youngsters Shehzad (1991-23), Williamson (1990-24), Root (1990-24), Smith (1989-25), Kohli (1988-26) & Mathews (1987-27) are all top 10 world class batsmen right now in Test&ODIs (Warner, Rahane, Sharma&Shafiq haven't done too badly either)!

Amla has pretty secured his placed as an ODI all-time great. Sanga has undoubtedly placed himself in the seperate Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Dravid&Kallis mix, I wonder if AB won't be struggling to mentioned amongst those youngsters?

I would've thought he would be a definite T20I great, but he's 51st currently, and I doubt he's ever been in the top 10 T20 rankings.

I don't know, but I get knocked as if to say I'm denying him his due, yet on the whole he's not standout and I seriously fear when he calls time on his career that will show ... and people might be surprised or act surprised. As things stand, I don't think he can even afford to have a single poor season in Tests or ODIs in order to keep up with these determined youngsters long-term.

I used to think the likes of AB & Ross Taylor would be the last of the really top international batsmen seeing as they were going into their 30s but batting is very much alive. It's a pity the Proteas don't have a top class youngster, no disrespect to RR(25)&QdK(22), but I think Stiaan van Zyl(27) might just be the one.

Problem is Rilee&Stiaan are already over 25 and are novices compared to those other guys, while QdK the best hope after them will have to give up the gloves and focus solely on batting at #5 in Tests&ODIs for the next 3 seasons, which I don't see happening. Will probably get dropped rather along the way.

Do the Proteas selectors have a problem with trusting youth?
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Sir Viv Richard isn't in your elite 'Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Dravid&Kallis' club, nor does he have the stats to even compete with them. But in my book he is one of the best, if not the best batsman in history.

Calling somebody a T20I great isn't saying much. Chris Gayle is the best T20 batsman ever (and scored the most T20I runs this year) - add 30 more overs and he becomes a tail-ender. Oh well...

AB will be, and is already regarded a great of game. It just shows, rankings and stats are not all that makes a great cricketer.
 
07_10 said:
Sir Viv Richard isn't in your elite 'Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Dravid&Kallis' club, nor does he have the stats to even compete with them. But in my book he is one of the best, if not the best batsman in history.

Calling somebody a T20I great isn't saying much. Chris Gayle is the best T20 batsman ever (and scored the most T20I runs this year) - add 30 more overs and he becomes a tail-ender. Oh well...

AB will be, and is already regarded a great of game. It just shows, rankings and stats are not all that makes a great cricketer.
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Actually he does have the stats, especially when you take into consideration the era he played in. That, and the fact that he was so far ahead of his peers, is a measure of how good he was...
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
Actually he does have the stats, especially when you take into consideration the era he played in. That, and the fact that he was so far ahead of his peers, is a measure of how good he was...
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Well Tendulkar's 15k Test runs vs. Viv's 8k Test runs - you decide.

But my point was that it isn't always about stats that make a great player.
 
07_10 said:
Well Tendulkar's 15k Test runs vs. Viv's 8k Test runs - you decide.

But my point was that it isn't always about stats that make a great player.
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Tendulkar amassed that amount of runs through the sheer volume of matches that he played. Have a look at Viv's average and strike rate - an average of 47 and a strike rate of 90 in the 1980s was unheard of.

But yeah I agree it's not always about the stats...
 
A stat that dont lie no matter how you look at it is AB's fastest to 7 000runs in ODI by 8 games to the closest second. Not rating him as an ODI great with that stat is being daft.

I do agree though that stats dont always show the full story especially when it comes to averages so you have to read all stats with an asterix when trying to compare players. Not all played an equal amount of matches, strike rates play a roll etc. Viv may be overlooked when just looking at averages but taking into account the era he played in and adding strike rate then he was a giant.

Total runs and fastest to XXX is a good measure because it irons out not outs etc but you can only compare players with a minimum amount of matches. An opener will play more innings than a middle order etc.

A guy like S Engelbrecht of Cobras for instance has a very good batting average but a high number of not outs (in limited overs) and no centuries (limited overs). Have to look at stats on merit.
 
07_10 said:
Sir Viv Richard isn't in your elite 'Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Dravid&Kallis' club, nor does he have the stats to even compete with them. But in my book he is one of the best, if not the best batsman in history.

Calling somebody a T20I great isn't saying much. Chris Gayle is the best T20 batsman ever (and scored the most T20I runs this year) - add 30 more overs and he becomes a tail-ender. Oh well...
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Easy tiger! Easy! I also left out Bradman&Gavasker who many would consider way ahead of Sir Viv, but I get your point. I rate him highly too and he happens to be the batsmen I most admire. I generally focused on batsmen whom I at least got to watch live on TV plenty of times, but neglected to state that. I watched Sir Viv in a handful of matches only, old tapes included. If you argue on those specifics then the only one who missed out is Chanderpaul, more as an oversight than anything else. He belongs to that club too.

Edit: I don't think any batsman at his best - now & before - can be equal to Ponting at his best.

T20Is&IPL changed our opinion of a lot of people. The fact of the matter is Chris Gayle is one of the best ever opening batsmen in world cricket, now and in the past. Obviously when those were "invented" he grew an attitude towards the game but believe you me, Gayle has outbatted Lara several times. So I would use too much of his later years - when he got fed up with Tests in the latter part of his captaincy, run-ins with the WICB etc - to judge him. Think of the Gayle who used to open with Wavell Hinds up until a few seasons into T20s. Afterall, he's 36 soon so you can afford to leave out the last 3/4 years of his international career and just focus on Tests&ODIs to appreciate how great he is. I've been watching Gayle since the very first time he struck a ball in international cricket.
 
07_10 said:
AB will be, and is already regarded a great of game. It just shows, rankings and stats are not all that makes a great cricketer.
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Forgive me. I've been reading too much from the book of Lamentations chapter 6 verse 1. In there I was told stats prove Morne Morkel is a top 10 batsmen so he's an absolute must for the Proteas in ODIs, so I'd have to be crazy to ignore stats&rankings.:D

I also regard AB as one of the best purely because of what I've seen him do to pretty much all the best bowlers (obvioulsy Ntini, Polly, Philander, Morkel, Tsotsoeb, & Steyn etc aside) in world cricket since he came onto the scene ... albeit after dropping down the order, but that's besides the point.

My theory however is that AB looks much better than he really is because of the nature of batsmen around him. Amla is classy & calm - the perfect batsman. GSmith was a lumberjack, and Kallis (like a Sachin&Dravid partnership) often put one to sleep. None of them exciting since Gibbs left. So we enjoy his creativity, improvisation and stamina to do that over&over again over long batting periods. He's what busy players like Steve Smith should aspire to be. AB is what we feel the modern batsman should have evolved into. Other like BMac, Steve Smith&Morgan look ugly while doing it and AB looks perfect. That's why I think we rate him higher than he really is. But on the whole I think if he is said to be a great then he will drag a lot of less deserving players into that bracket.

I would much ratehr prefer him to moce higher up the order, string together a number of double-tons, and some triple tons for good measure. God knows how many triple tons the likes of Ponting&Lara would've got using against the horrendous bowling of today. That's what AB needs to do to be a true great. But that's just my opinion. On the other hand I think the likes of Kohli, Gary Ballance&Williamson will be doing this with ease by the time they are 30/31 like AB.
 
Stefanmuller said:
A stat that dont lie no matter how you look at it is AB's fastest to 7 000runs in ODI by 8 games to the closest second. Not rating him as an ODI great with that stat is being daft.

I do agree though that stats dont always show the full story especially when it comes to averages so you have to read all stats with an asterix when trying to compare players. Not all played an equal amount of matches, strike rates play a roll etc. Viv may be overlooked when just looking at averages but taking into account the era he played in and adding strike rate then he was a giant.

Total runs and fastest to XXX is a good measure because it irons out not outs etc but you can only compare players with a minimum amount of matches. An opener will play more innings than a middle order etc.

A guy like S Engelbrecht of Cobras for instance has a very good batting average but a high number of not outs (in limited overs) and no centuries (limited overs). Have to look at stats on merit.
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I've already said he is a "great" depending on how one looks at it, but "abusing" that word where AB is concered will inevitably drag other players along.

Yes he's fastest to 7000, and he's played lots of matches, as will other young batsmen that willl follow him ... and surpass him.

At every stage 2000-5000 Amla has been by far the best. Surpassing Kohli with each stride. The are both doing that at not just a faster rate than AB by innings but also years, which says a lot! Accomodate some of the youngsters at 2k-4k and you see just how far behind AB is, and just how far ahead of him they will be. Bear in mind AB had what you would liken to a child's growth spurt regarding his career. That's not the case with some of things youngsters. They are simply being consistent. Imagine if they have a similar type "growth spurt", just like Matthews is having now. Not long ago on ewould've refused if you told then Mathews is better than Albie Morkel.

Let's wait and see. My early verdict is guys like Saeed Anwar&Yousuf Youhana were also "great" skill batsmen, like AB is. Mahela will retire completely soon and whatever they say about him is exactly what I believe will be said about AB. Great but not among the very best. Mahela too was quietly overtaken by many remember ;)
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
But yeah I agree it's not always about the stats...
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Which is why we descend into ambiguous and subjective territory.

We shouldn't be reduced to age old argument about who was the fastest, purely because back then there were no speed guns but now there is. I would want to argue Brian Lara was the most pleasing batsmen to the eye, but someone else could just as easily argue it's Amla, Azharrudin, Mahela or Mark Waugh.

Who is the most dominant ever - Hayden, Graeme Smith, Gayle or Sir Viv?

The most aggressive ever - Afridi, Sehwag, Gilchrist or Warner?

The most complete all-formats batsman - AB, KP, Kohli or Mike Hussey?

Same applies to bowlers - every batsman knows they are most likely to lose their wicket to Steyn, but they'd rather face him than Johnson. Yet there are many other bowlers who some would consider to more dangerous than Johnson and argue accordingly.

These are all disputable, but stats will never lie. Ponting can point to his numerous dominant years and volume of runs, Kane Williamson&Younis Khan have just had or are having theirs, Sachin has the sheer volume of runs, Amla the pace at which he amassed his ODI milestones, Chanderpaul how they couldn't dislodge him no matter how hard they tried etc., Kallis' allround prowess - all of them backed up by stats to say I was the very greatest in this.
 
ZCF, you must be on crack my friend, what else can explain it :-)

AB is the fastest to 7,000, has the highest average of those who have 7,000, has the fastest 50, 100, 150 and even faster last 50 and 100 in recent game, the best closer with SR of 165 in overs 41-50, SR of 225 in 46-50 with next best having an average less than half of his, he does so without 'protecting his wicket' (if you want to bring the likes of Amla etc in).

If you combine all of those factors (and those factors win matches) then he is head and shoulders above everybody else , Dhoni, Gilchrist etc

What else will make him the best ever in ODI for you?
 
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OzzieCapie said:
ZCF, you must be on crack my friend, what else can explain it :-)

AB is the fastest to 7,000, has the highest average of those who have 7,000, has the fastest 50, 100, 150 and even faster last 50 and 100 in recent game, the best closer with SR of 165 in overs 41-50, SR of 225 in 46-50 with next best having an average less than half of his, he does so without 'protecting his wicket' (if you want to bring the likes of Amla etc in).

If you combine all of those factors (and those factors win matches) then he is head and shoulders above everybody else , Dhoni, Gilchrist etc

What else will make him the best ever in ODI for you?
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If his name was Andile Bogani Dlungwana? :p
 
World Cup 2015: South Africa March 2, 2015 Behardien aspires to emulate de Villiers

AB de Villiers' record-breaking feats serve as inspiration to aspiring cricketers from Durban to Dunedin but it turns out he has the same effect on those in his own dressing room. De Villiers' team-mates been left wide-eyed by their captain's feats, which include the fastest fifty, hundred and 150 in ODI cricket in less than a month and they expect he may have more to offer.

"It's overwhelming. It's bewilderment. It's just jaw-dropping stuff," Farhaan Behardien said. "We saw him in Johannesburg and we couldn't believe what we were seeing. Jo'burg is on the high side so the ball travels a bit further there, and that's generally a record-breaking ground. But the SCG, it's at sea level and I don't know, I'm at a loss for words. We're all in awe when we see him bat like that. He doesn't want that acknowledgment, the fact that he's breaking all these records and stuff. He'll just be happy with a team win, and I'm sure we all would be."

Behardien was with de Villiers for the last 18 minutes of his innings against West Indies on Friday, when he ripped into Jason Holder. "I had the best seat in the house for those 12 balls," Behardien said.

With de Villiers seeing the ball like a watermelon, Behardien's main focus was getting the captain on strike but de Villiers himself just wanted runs for the team. At one stage, they ran two and that's when Behardien knew who people preferred to see. "I think the crowd booed me when I got two the other night," he joked. "Luckily I hit the next ball for six. My friends back home, they actually made a joke, and they just sent me a message in like a video of the actual ball, and we just had a good chuckle about it."

In the aftermath of all that, Behardien has been left wanting to emulate de Villiers and sympathising with the bowlers who have to bowl to him. "He is a level above most batters. I don't think a lot of batters can replicate what he does - Brendon McCullum is one of them, Chris Gayle…I wouldn't want to be in the bowling analysis meeting when trying to plan for AB de Villiers. I'm glad he's on my side," Behardien said. "He's raised the bar, and [scored] the fastest 150, the fastest 100. It's something I aspire to [achieve]."

Behardien has only had one opportunity to bat so far, despite making his name as a middle-order finisher on the domestic circuit, and is relied on more as a bowler. But for him, it's about savouring an experience he has prepared his whole life for. "It's a testimony to our strong top six. Somewhere along the line there's a feeling within the team and there's a feeling within myself that I'm going to have to step up to the plate, and when that opportunity arises, hopefully I'll be ready. I've been prepping for this for a long time, for 20 years," he said. "The fact that I'm here playing in a World Cup for my country is something so special and something so dear to me that memory will keep me in good stead forever."

Firdose Moonda is ESPNcricinfo's South Africa correspondent
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.
 
OzzieCapie said:
ZCF, you must be on crack my friend, what else can explain it :-)

AB is the fastest to 7,000, has the highest average of those who have 7,000, has the fastest 50, 100, 150 and even faster last 50 and 100 in recent game, the best closer with SR of 165 in overs 41-50, SR of 225 in 46-50 with next best having an average less than half of his, he does so without 'protecting his wicket' (if you want to bring the likes of Amla etc in).

If you combine all of those factors (and those factors win matches) then he is head and shoulders above everybody else , Dhoni, Gilchrist etc

What else will make him the best ever in ODI for you?
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Why are you starting your arguments from 7000 runs when most players who are well set to, haven't reached that; or former players never reached that due to a small number of ODIs prior to the end of their careers?

Please walk me through 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 7000 milestones. Qualify why he was missing and who was there instead. When you're done factor in a West Indies attack missing Roach, Narine&Badree. The same attack IRE, ZIM, perhaps even UAE hardly break sweat to get to 300+ against. Then we can talk. ;). Even Rilee "Golden Duck" Rossouw fancies his chances.

Everyone in this forum knows I've never questioned AB in ODIs. I've categorically said in Tests&T20s he is NOT a great. In ODIs he's very good, but I can't see him ending up higher than Amla, Kohli, Williamson & Steve Smith.

Amla has about the same centuries as AB, but has played 70 ODIs less!!! Mate, 70 ODIs is an entire career. What was THE GREAT AB doing in that time? Please, I beg you, think about tht for a moment. Amla had time to be dropped, and had to fight his way back while AB was a constant....and failing.

Kohli 5 years his junior has 2 more centuries than him, having played 30 matches less. Kohli didn't have the privilege of opening like AB who raced to 1000 runs as a result. AB on the other hand had the opportunity to pile on runs by batting longer. Yet, he failed. He failed miserably and had to be redeployed like the ANC cadres. While Amla has thoroughly succeeded precisely where AB failed so miserably.

In my book that kind of failure can never be associated with greatness, especially when better, younger living players are still operating.

I like the fact that you refer to recent knocks. This is good as it serves to strengthen the fact that he's going through a purple patch. Long may it continue. It won't be enough to help im get a mention in the same sentence as Amla&Kohli, but who knows he might just make it with the Williamson&Steve Smiths of this world.
 
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You accuse me of being on crack then go on to say AB is the greatest ever ODI batsman. Who's on crack between the two of us? Either you've never heard of Hashim Amla Virat Kohli, or for reasons best known to you and those who agree with you, they are excluded from your deductions.

In my book they are miles ahead of AB.

To answer your question nothing will make AB better than them so it's nigh on impossiBle for him to be the best ever for me in ODIs. #FACT!
 
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