The Proteas - Our Team!

AB bats at 4 or 5, Amla is an opener.

AB already has 7,000 runs with SR and average increasing. Amla has 5,000 with neither increasing. No use predicting what he will be, talk about what he is.

AB has the best stats in all the parameters that win games with no one coming close, in factor he is almost an outlier in ODI history

Keep smoking....
 
OzzieCapie said:
AB bats at 4 or 5, Amla is an opener.

AB already has 7,000 runs with SR and average increasing. Amla has 5,000 with neither increasing. No use predicting what he will be, talk about what he is.

AB has the best stats in all the parameters that win games with no one coming close, in factor he is almost an outlier in ODI history

Keep smoking....
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The only superiority that I can see for AB is matches and runs. Both of which will be easily surpassed.

AB de Villiers > 182 ODIs, 7676 Runs, 52.93 Avg, 20-100s
Virat Kohli > 153 ODIs, 6418 Runs, 52.17 Avg, 22-100s
Hashim Amla > 110 ODIs, 5457 Runs, 55.68 Avg, 19-100s (excluding today's match)

In fact, Amla is so far ahead of AB, that you can put a whole Kane Williamson carreer between them (70 ODIs), and accomodate an Amla average dropping by 9 runs (which is very unlikely), and he'd still be way ahead of AB in terms of runs&centuries - Kane Williamson > 69 ODIs, 2601 Runs, 47.29 Avg, 6-100s.

In terms of ODI batting stats, the articles I scheme through only compare Amla&Kohli in terms of speed of runs&centuries. With Sir Viv thrown in for historic comparison.

NB: 20% of AB's career, i.e. 37 matches, has been as an opener. That translates to 34% of Amla's career. Kindly ponder over the class chasm between the two as openers.

Yes my friend, AB like pretty much most batsmen, relies on a foundation set before him. Watch him go against Ireland now. Was the same case in all his record-breaking innings. No foundation, no AB class, no AB records.;) Same with Kallis. Amla's brilliance boosted his Test career when everyone haad forgotten about him when talking about Dravid, Sachin, Ponting&Lara. You say AB wins games, I say Amla makes the victories. That has been the case for South African cricket for pretty much his whole Test&ODI career.
 
It's so sad that we comes down to comparing someone who slogs against tired bowlers&old balls, to someone who has achieved far much more in a much shorter period by ozzing class&grace through effortless batting. Very sad. AB is a feak of nature in his own right, but to unfairly drag hi mto a level where one seeks to compare him to vastly superior peers is scandalous.
 
ZCFOutkast said:
It's so sad that we comes down to comparing someone who slogs against tired bowlers&old balls, to someone who has achieved far much more in a much shorter period by ozzing class&grace through effortless batting. Very sad. AB is a feak of nature in his own right, but to unfairly drag hi mto a level where one seeks to compare him to vastly superior peers is scandalous.
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So why do you carry on doing it.

You are the one that compares an opener to a #4/5...I have acknowledged both as great batsmen
 
OzzieCapie said:
So why do you carry on doing it.

You are the one that compares an opener to a #4/5...I have acknowledged both as great batsmen
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Boet you're digging up something older than the other thread, and we've discussed this in the Amla thread. Ab is an opener, but a failed one just like mike Hussey. People can agree to disagree you know, and continue to comment likewise without further need to justify themselves or read too much into things(e.g. most soccer fans say Scholes is the greatest, desperate Pool&Chelski fans will say StevieG/Lamps - no problemo). I've already said:

1. Amla is a better Test&ODI batsman than AB.
2. Amla has scored runs&centuries in both those formats at a faster rate than AB(70 ODIs margin).
3. Amla is already the greatest ODI batsman ever. Fastest to various 1000 run&century intervals. (Longevity hasn't denied Shane Bond or our peerless Vernon Philander being compared to either Steyn, Lee, Akhtar etc).
4. Amla has succedeed in both the top order&middle order. AB has only succeeded in the middle order.
5. Whenever Amla doesn't do well the Proteas don't do well.
6. In every ODI match that they've been involved in together in which the Proteas have lost, AB has only ever been Not Out once, scored just one century, and scored fewer boundary runs than Amla, plus has a Strike Rate relatively equal to Amla's. In the same position I doubt Amla would've been as poor or restricted as AB.
7. AB is going through a purple patch, and has had a career of very long and poor spells of bad form, while Amla has been consistently brilliant.

In my opinion, if these above 7 points were under AB's name not Amla, I would be laughed at if I even tried to say Amla is better or that they are comparable. Statistically there is no comparison unless one is making it up.

Someone says Amla is better, AB is better, they are comparable, not comparable etc. I say of the two Amla is better and only he will qualify to belong alongside the other true modern (Test/ODI) greats - Lara, Ponting, Sachin, Dravid, Sanga, Chanderpaul&Kallis. Right now Amla can only be compared to Kohli (ODIs only) or those who do better because the fact is AB is not doing any better than other middle order stars of today who are younger and have gained more ranking points than him lately (Matthews, Root, Kohli, Steve Smith, Williamson etc). While he moves&strikes the ball beautifuly, so does a Maxwell, BMac or Raina(&Gayle), none of who form discussion about greats.

I'm analysing AB failry, not hating him. While lauding Amla fairly because he's proved it, earned it&stats agree with me. Let's agree to disagree and enjoy cricket. ;)
 
To keep on saying the same thing over and over about what a player was 7 years ago is silly.... players evolve and grow within them self. You can not deny, which ever way you think about it, that AB is rising, and surpassed Amla's consistancy...

In my opinion I do not really care who rates the one better than the other, Amla is a legend, and so is AB for that matter.
Your opinion is just "yours".... ICC have a ranking system in place stating that AB is the best the past 2-3 years, passing AMLA who had it 3 years.... perhaps I am not seeing, but I do not see a "Criteria" that you must open or bat at three to qualify as the best?

rankings.PNG
 
Beavis said:
You can not deny, which ever way you think about it, that AB is rising, and surpassed Amla's consistancy...
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That's where you're wrong. For all of AB's purplepatch, Not Outs through batting lower, High Strike Rate free scoring after a foundation, AB's best is still below Amla's best rating, and he's only achieved it recently in 2015 http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/alltime/odi/.

What people fail to realise is that no matter how well one does - be it Kohli, AB, Williamson etc, Amla is so unbelievably consistent that he continues to pile on runs, half-centuries&centuries at a frightening pace and with great ease. His consistency is out of this world. A few bad innings and he's overtaken you. Guys can't afford to have a bad series because he'll leave you behind by some distance very quickyly. AB has had to really outdo himself to get there, and kudos to him for that. But most importantly, on the whole, AB doesn't do well whenever Amla doesn't do well. So for that reason alone he will never be able to surpass Amla because he relies on Amla's brilliance in order to thrive. All of them do - AB, JP, Faf etc.

Even if you compare both players' graphs, AB only really started to do well when Amla was in the ODI side and playing well. That's not a coincidence. The odds of Amla's graph going down while AB continues to rise are tiny.

I provided you with a stat which proves AB's performance drops so sharply when Amla doesn't do well. He only has one century in 33 matches, and has only been Not Out just once. Over the same 2-3 year period you refer to, we've lost 19 times, AB has no century, and has never been Not Out.

Does that stat not matter?

With all due respect, if he is his own player don't you think he should have done better than that? Average far much more, have lots of "Not Outs" and have at least one century because he bats so low?

In losses, Sanga's greatness has nothing to do with the openers' success. Same applies to Ponting, Dhoni, Mahela, Kohli, Mike Hussey etc osm eof whom bat lower than AB. And yet AB is so dependent on Amla's success. It's shocking just how much that fact is overlooked by many people. When he starts averaging 50 when we lose, no matter how badly Amla does, then we can talk.

To me this also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Amla is in the same XI as AB, and he doesn't win us matches himself, then we may as well forget that AB will.

The fact is in the last 3 years AB has as many centuries as Ross Taylor who bats in the same position, for a weaker team(NZ), plus faced much less balls. Kohli also bat at #4 to get 3 tons in his last 7 innings, and overall he has six more centuries than AB over that ranking period. Those are the facts my friend. You are trying to weigh perception with stats. #NotCool.
 
hehe, you win.... ICC rankings shows AB is #1 in ODI's .... period!!! #verycool
 
de Kock needs to plummet down the order to try and get his head sorted out.

What are the options, though? Move Faf up as he is basically doing the opening or move AB or Rilee? I'd be inclined to drop de Kock down and move the other batsmen up a spot.

1. Amla
2. du Plessis
3. de Villiers
4. Rossouw
5. Duminy
6. de Kock

As for the bowlers, I'd stick with Steyn, Morkel, Abbott/Philander and Tahir, then juggle with Parnell and Miller at #7.
 
ZCFOutkast said:
I provided you with a stat which proves AB's performance drops so sharply when Amla doesn't do well. He only has one century in 33 matches, and has only been Not Out just once. Over the same 2-3 year period you refer to, we've lost 19 times, AB has no century, and has never been Not Out.
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Maybe AB had to push things batting at 10rpo and got out on those occasions. Fact of the matter is that with stats, they do not always tell you the full picture. I.e. game circumstances, etc.
In the period where SA lost and AB did not get a 100, he got 8 50+ scores vs Amla's 4.

The debate of Amla vs AB can go around in circles forever and a day. Each have a different job to do. When Amla performs at the top and the foundation is laid, AB can go and do the 149 of 44 ball thing. With this platform, there is no risk if AB gets 20 off 8.

Each is brilliant in what he does. Make no mistake, I am a big fan of both # and AB. For very different reasons, but regard them as legends of the game.
 
Left-arm pace bowlers have been far and away the most effective bowlers in this World Cup: Australia and Pakistan have three each, New Zealand two, England none.
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Well we left by far our best ODI seamer at home (Lonwabo Tsotsobe), and he happens to be left-handed. The other leftie, our fastest seamer (Wayne Parnell), will not be picked, and if he's picked he's deemed unsuitable or unworthy of the honor of using the new ball. No wonder even ZIM can score big against us.
 
ZCFOutkast said:
Well we left by far our best ODI seamer at home (Lonwabo Tsotsobe), and he happens to be left-handed. The other leftie, our fastest seamer (Wayne Parnell), will not be picked, and if he's picked he's deemed unsuitable or unworthy of the honor of using the new ball. No wonder even ZIM can score big against us.
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This is getting old, put it in your signature then you don't have to cry about them in every second post.
 
Rabada is absolutely breaking down the door. Marchant has proved his fitness with relative success in the Sunfoil Series. Less successful than most but enough consideriing his height&pace. What will CSA do when the poor Morkel whose droppign is long overdues finishes as our highest wicket-taker in the CWC; and Steyn continues to be a single innings threat in Tests; while Philander has less of an impact in the same format when swing is not forthcoming? Viljoen refuses to go away despite multiple failures for the A side. What if he destroys a touring team. All of sudden that list goes to three.

I think CSA should organise an A side to go to Bangladesh ahead of the Test Series, and play 4 unofficial Tests there.

XI: Reeza, Rilee, SvZ, Farhaan(c), Bavuma, Mosehle(wk), Parnell, Harmer, Rabada, Piedt, Marchant
Reserves: RvdM, Cody Chetty, Leie, Viljoen, Paterson

Dane Piedt looks to be suffering and has been dropped by the Cobras, but it would be hard for the selectors to ignore him. So it makes sense for him to prove himself first. We'll need to spinners in top form alongside JP's part-timers. If none do we then they might as well go all out pace and hope for the best. In that event, chucking in RvdM alongside JP won't hurt. I think he'll get enough runs to erase what he leaks anyway.

The squad is bowler heavy with only one reserve batsman (Cody Chetty), but those in the XI are the ones who really need to bat in all 8 possible innings so no replacement is really necessary except ot cover for injury. Young Theunis de Bruyn's failure to convert anything in this Sunfoil Series has to rule him out of contention. The key is to experiment with the bowler combinations. That's the best reserve 3-man pace attack currently. Paterson has done too well to be ingnored this season, and Viljoen can't be this consistently good if he's rubbish so one last chance won't hurt.

The best wicket-keepr in the land right now wil ensure none of the spinners miss out through spilled catches or missed stumpings. Battingwise, Tsolekile averages better than the youngsters (Mosehle&Second), but Mosehle is the future so he should go ahead of Tsolekile, whose keeping has been brilliant.

Tempting to send QdK as well but those BD seamers under Heath Streak, or their ever-impressive spinners will eat him alive. For fear of a premature suspensions of his international career he should be overlooked for this one but selected in the Test squad and judged from that instead. I think Amla, AB, JP&Faf will have enough runs on the board for him to do well, something this A side's top 4/5 won't do for him leaving him as exposed as he has been in this CWC.

The objective is to complete the Test XI, and I think this will do:
Elgar, Reeza/Rilee, Faf, Amla, AB, JP, QdK/SvZ/Bavuma, Philander, Harmer/Piedt/Leie, Steyn, Morkel/Marchant/Rabada
The first names in bold being the front-runners, the rest making up the reserves.

If SvZ, RR&Bavuma fail it means QdK buys more patience&time to continue in the squad as keeper-batsman beyond this series even if he fails. Otherwise AB might have to keep since he doesn't captain in Tests, and one of those three comes in.

Just two scores over 50 in 7 innings for SvZ is a concern. Further to that, he failed miserably for the A side against the England Lions - both FC&LA. So his form isn't exactly oozing confidence right now, but the Test hundred will have helped. Bavuma as always has been brilliant in the domestic FC games as well as for the A side, but wasn't convincing for the Test side. what that means is RR will have the nod for that middle order spot in place of QdK. Fair considering he would have debuted ahead of those two but for injury.

The fact that SvZ failed mostly as an opener, while Rilee Rossouw's failures opening for the Proteas in ODIs are record-breaking, means Reeza has all but sealed the spot as Alviro's replacement to partner Dean Elgar. Smart money though tells me they will rotate SvZ,QdK&RR to inevitably fail in that position, then try Faf, before they let him open. I believe we can;t afford to stuff up. We need someone who's opened for the bulk of their career like Reeza. If they don't want him then they must select Stephen Cook (and make him Proteas VC). Can get 2/3 years out of him while the rest develop by being forced to open for their franchises. TdB seems to be giving himself experience as an opener, just as Rassie is doing alongside Cook for the Lions.

NB: Post CWC what of ODIs? After RR&QdK have failed, while it seems Faf is reluctant to do so, I think the time has come to let Elgar open for the ODI side too! AB will inevitably be fired as captain so he has to accept wicketkeeping duties. My shock replacement as captain is RR. They'll do a Graeme Smith like appointment. I have a feeling Steyn might let go of ODIs to specialise in Tests. While Morkel will be pushed out, like Steyn he's still a big IPL buy so he'll be fine.

Tsotsobe will go back into the XI and form the most destructive new ball opening partnership in world cricket with Philander for another couple of seasons. Abbott will continue in the XI but he won't be good enough to outbowl Marchant/Rabada/Parnell at this level or remain in the squad ahead of them, so one of those will replace him in the XI sooner rather than later. The fact that those three consistently bowl 145-150kph means Abbott stands little chance considering Tsotsobe&Philander already form the medium pace+swing contingent - both vastly superior to him if we must be honest. Rabada is by far the best of the rest right now ListA&FC, but I think Marchant has waited for too long to establish himself, so he needs at least a two series run too (I'm fair unlike some people:D). Farhaan&Phangiso will continue to be in the squad.
Amla, Elgar, Faf, AB(wk), Rilee(c), JP, Miller, Philander, Marchant, Tsotsobe, Tahir

There you go. Enough "trolling" points to keep us interested in our boys once they come back this week. :D
 
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