The Syrian Conflict Thread

[Nanfeishen]

Can a person accused of War Crimes against his people be a legitimate leader ? Hmm, could have an interesting ethical/moral debate about that one.

What would the murder and torture victims, civilian casualties, refugees and displaced persons have to say about that ?

It is going to be interesting to see how he rules from his cell at the ICC in The Hague. Wonder if he will get permission to use his cellphone ? Unlikely.

Even today popularity still plays a big part of his continued position:

Assad's popularity

What is not widely known is that before the uprising of 2011, Assad was a genuinely popular president who enjoyed broad support among most sections of Syrian society. He was even able to drive his own car and walk about in markets with a minimum visible security detail, often drawing large adoring crowds. There really was no need to manufacture this sort of propaganda in Syria, as is the case in most other dictatorships.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/syria-why-assad-still-power-544952547

Regards massacres etc i would suggest some background reading:

Syria: The hidden massacre

Syrian-based Father Frans van der Lugt was the Dutch priest murdered by a gunman in Homs just a few weeks ago. His involvement in reconciliation and peace activities never stopped him from lobbing criticisms at both sides in this conflict. But in the first year of the crisis, he penned some remarkable observations about the violence – this one in January 2012:

“From the start the protest movements were not purely peaceful. From the start I saw armed demonstrators marching along in the protests, who began to shoot at the police first. Very often the violence of the security forces has been a reaction to the brutal violence of the armed rebels.”

In September 2011 he wrote: “From the start there has been the problem of the armed groups, which are also part of the opposition…The opposition of the street is much stronger than any other opposition. And this opposition is armed and frequently employs brutality and violence, only in order then to blame the government.”

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/157412-syria-hidden-massacre-2011/

 

[Unhappy1]

I find it rather amusing when people try to defend Assad. When you roll barrel bombs out of the back of helicopters into residential areas, you cant make an argument about the nature of the origins of the protests.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Of course a democratic vote can take place, the only question is if democracy will remain after the vote.

Democratic values have to exist in the minds and hearts of the people prior to a vote , otherwise it will never last.
Voting doesnt solve problems it creates them.

What's your plan to end this all?

Crush ISIS and the Islamic extemists at all cost to secure and stabalise the country, whatever it takes.
There is no diplomatic scenario, there is no negotiation, no peacefull solution, total war, scorched earth and the elimination of their infrastructure, support, finances, livelihood, goats, sheep, water supplies, housing, flatten it all, starve them out, wipe them out.
They clearly want a war ,then i say give them a war they will never forget for generations to come.

 

[Jola]

Even today popularity still plays a big part of his continued position:

No, that's not today, that's before 2011.

51.4% of the country's population has now fled the country, are dead or are homeless migrants.
(based on figures quoted below)

Since 2011 over seven million Syrians have been forced from their homes by the civil war. Nearly 300,000 have died and most of the 22 million Syrians have lost their homes and/or jobs. Thus a third of the population has been driven from their homes and over 20 percent (nearly four million) have left the country and most of those live in refugee camps. Two-thirds of those still in Syria are short of food, medical care and much else. Most of the country no longer has electric power (other than from small generators) or public water and sanitation service. Cell phone service is down in most of the country and over ten percent of the towns, villages and city neighborhoods are completely abandoned (except for scavengers or passing travelers). It’s a Mad Max world, except they use real bullets. A major appeal of the Assad government is the fact that it controls most of the remaining “intact” or “normal” Syria (from Damascus north to the coastal area). For many Syrians that is the only part of the country worth fighting for, even if you don’t like the Assads. That’s only about 20 percent of Syria and 20 percent of the population. The rest is a war torn wasteland full of armed men, terrified civilians and unresolved claims about who is in charge. Despite that this portion of pre-2011 Syria is shrinking. The government lost control of Idlib province in north-central Syria this year and many smaller bits in the north (especially around Aleppo) and south (around Deraa and the Israeli border).

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/syria/articles/20150804.aspx

The remaining 48.6% consists of ISIS, Syrian Rebels, Kurds and Pro-Assad Forces.

So no, Assad doesn't have much support.

 

[Unhappy1]

Democratic values have to exist in the minds and hearts of the people prior to a vote , otherwise it will never last.
Voting doesnt solve problems it creates them.



Crush ISIS and the Islamic extemists at all cost to secure and stabalise the country, whatever it takes.
There is no diplomatic scenario, there is no negotiation, no peacefull solution, total war, scorched earth and the elimination of their infrastructure, support, finances, livelihood, goats, sheep, water supplies, housing, flatten it all, starve them out, wipe them out.
They clearly want a war ,then i say give them a war they will never forget for generations to come.

With your approach there will be war for at least another year, probably more (barring a ground invasion from a major power). Negotiating a ceasefire between moderate forces (they do exist) would shorten the length of the war by a huge amount and any type of ceasefire would require a vote. Shunning the idea of diplomacy smacks of someone who is rather naive to the effects this war has had on the population of Syria for the last four and a half years.

 

[Dave]

Not really, at one point he was only in control of a portion of the country.

It's slightly bigger now, but still small.

Can a person accused of War Crimes against his people be a legitimate leader ? Hmm, could have an interesting ethical/moral debate about that one.

There are other examples, look at Zuma's friend Omar al-Bashir who is still President of Sudan and adds genocide and crimes against humanity to his charges of war crimes.

 

[Jola]

There are other examples, look at Zuma's friend Omar al-Bashir who is still President of Sudan and adds genocide and crimes against humanity to his charges of war crimes.

Yes, same question applies. Now South Africa are accomplices. #ProudlyBroughtByANC

 

[AntiGanda]

I find it rather amusing when people try to defend Assad. When you roll barrel bombs out of the back of helicopters into residential areas, you cant make an argument about the nature of the origins of the protests.

What do you have against the shape of a bomb. A hovering low helicopter is going to be significantly more accurate.

 

[snoopdoggydog]

Former Deputy Director of the CIA Michael Morell suggested that Barack Obama didn’t order the bombing of ISIS’s oil transportation infrastructure until recently in part because he was concerned about environmental damage.

Morell also said the White House was concerned about destroying infrastructure that could be used by the Syrian people.

Appearing on PBS’s “Charlie Rose” on Tuesday, Rose pointed out that before the terrorist attacks in Paris, the U.S. had not bombed ISIS-controlled oil tankers.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/25/f...ck-isis-oil-because-of-the-environment-video/

[video=youtube;TgMgjPzXqg4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=TgMgjPzXqg4[/video]

 

[Jola]

What do you have against the shape of a bomb. A hovering low helicopter is going to be significantly more accurate.

Yes, especially when it is rolled into a group of civilians.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Deadly 'Russian airstrike' hits market in Syria's Idlib

At least 44 people killed and scores wounded in air attack on popular marketplace in town of Ariha, activists say.

At least 44 people were killed and scores wounded on Sunday in a suspected Russian air strike on a crowded marketplace in Idlib province, activists have told Al Jazeera.

The strikes hit the town of Ariha, which is controlled by the Army of Conquest, a rebel alliance which includes the Nusra Front, the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

In addition to the market, several other areas of the town were hit, the group said.

Local news channel Ariha al-Youm reported cluster bombs were used in the raid by a Russian fighter jet.

The pro-opposition Orient TV reported an initial death toll of 40.

However, Rami Abdulrahman, director of the observatory, put the death toll much higher, saying at least 60 people were killed and wounded in the attack.

Officials at the Russian defence ministry could not immediately be reached for comment.

 

[AntiGanda]

Yes, especially when it is rolled into a group of civilians.

Civilians with their crude weapons. This one shoots gas cylinders in civilian areas.

 

[Jola]

Civilians with their crude weapons. This one shoots gas cylinders in civilian areas.

I was referring more to the mothers and children.

Are you going to look for an image of a 10 year old boy with an RPG-7 now ?

Just give it up, Assad is a War Criminal.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/12/smuggled-syrian-documents-indict-assad-investigators

 

[Jola]

At least 44 people killed and scores wounded in air attack on popular marketplace in town of Ariha, activists say.

At least 44 people were killed and scores wounded on Sunday in a suspected Russian air strike on a crowded marketplace in Idlib province, activists have told Al Jazeera.

The strikes hit the town of Ariha, which is controlled by the Army of Conquest, a rebel alliance which includes the Nusra Front, the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

In addition to the market, several other areas of the town were hit, the group said.

Local news channel Ariha al-Youm reported cluster bombs were used in the raid by a Russian fighter jet.

The pro-opposition Orient TV reported an initial death toll of 40.

However, Rami Abdulrahman, director of the observatory, put the death toll much higher, saying at least 60 people were killed and wounded in the attack.

Officials at the Russian defence ministry could not immediately be reached for comment.

Where is Xarog to say that it is not a Russian jet, and to demand proof ?

The Russians are butchers, that is why their bombing is so effective.

Aren't cluster bombs banned under the Geneva convention ?

Oh, and before Xarog says it, I know that the USA also has them, but they don't use them on civilians. Or at all for that matter.

See, I have just reduced the number of responses

 

[AntiGanda]

Where is Xarog to say that it is not a Russian jet, and to demand proof ?

The Russians are butchers, that is why there bombing is so effective.

Can you recognize a jet at 6000m?
Why do you think they put 'Russian airstrike' in quotes.

 

[Seriously]

What do you have against the shape of a bomb. A hovering low helicopter is going to be significantly more accurate.

Its not the shape its the collateral damage it causes but I am sure you know that but you had to troll again as usual.

 

[Jola]

Can you recognize a jet at 6000m?
Why do you think they put 'Russian airstrike' in quotes.

Ah, didn't work, another St Petersburg member.

I can recognise a SU-24 at that height, and I am sure that they can too.

And the US doesn't bomb those rebel groups.

 

[Seriously]

I can recognise a SU-24 at that height, and I am sure that they can too.

And the US doesn't bomb those rebel groups.

Shhh.......... it's too difficult for some to comprehend those simple facts!

 

[Dave]

Ah, didn't work, another St Petersburg member.

I can recognise a SU-24 at that height, and I am sure that they can too.

As a matter of interest, how do you tell a Russian SU-24 from a Syrian SU-24 at even 600m? Not looking to make an argument, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Russians removed the red star insignia from their aircraft operating in Syria, I would expect it to be very difficult to tell one speck in the sky from another identical speck in the sky.

It's pointless allowing anti-Russian feelings to cloud and skew your judgement.

Edit to add:

Confirmation that there are no Russian markings on their jets in Syria.

A closer look at the warplanes provides the confirmation that all the aircraft, including the Su-25s and the Su-34s, were removed the standard Russian Air Force markings and the typical Red Star: most probably the Russians don’t want their symbol to be shown off along with the wreckage of a plane in case one is shot down or crashes in Syria.

[video=youtube_share;smG_2cww8hU]https://youtu.be/smG_2cww8hU[/video]
http://theaviationist.com/2015/10/02/video-inside-latakia-airbase-syria/

 

[Seriously]

As a matter of interest, how do you tell a Russian SU-24 from a Syrian SU-24 at even 600m? Not looking to make an argument, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Russians removed the red star insignia from their aircraft operating in Syria, I would expect it to be very difficult to tell one speck in the sky from another identical speck in the sky.

It's pointless allowing anti-Russian feelings to cloud and skew your judgement.

What does it matter? Both Syria and Russians are bombing the shirt out of civilians and rebels alike.