The Vegan Thread

[BCO]

Vegans are a lot like Crossfit people so much fun.

There have been a lot of recent threads lately that have been derailed into the subject of veganism (often my fault), so let's rather discuss the issue here. There are a few of us on the forum, and there are also a lot of misconceptions out there about how healthful it is, if it even reduces animal deaths, and why people choose to do it.

Personally, I went vegan for ethical reasons, based on things like this:

[video=youtube;zF7Ega_TpZE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE&feature=youtu.be[/video]

There are other compelling reasons though, specifically around massive environmental benefits, as well as some potential health benefits. Happy to discuss any of these issues here.

 

[konfab]

If ethics is a problem for you, would you eat animals that you have grown and slaughtered yourself?

Also would you have a problem eating insects or fish grown sustainably?

 

[sutekj]

Couldn't finish it. The meat industry is disgusting and barbaric.

 

[OMB]

You may be able to justify environmental aspects in some areas, but large scale crop farming is responsible for massive damage to eco systems and the environment as well

 

[Kalle]

You may be able to justify environmental aspects in some areas, but large scale crop farming is responsible for massive damage to eco systems and the environment as well

I 2nd that, that's why I eat only organic.
Organic = Less pesticides and no GMO and other "nasties".

My wife is a vegan and I'm vegetarian.
We have a daughter and she's vegetarian by her own choice.

 

[KleinBoontjie]

I 2nd that, that's why I eat only organic.
Organic = Less pesticides and no GMO and other "nasties".

My wife is a vegan and I'm vegetarian.
We have a daughter and she's vegetarian by her own choice.

Aaaah, the organic food myths

 

[TofuMofu]

If ethics is a problem for you, would you eat animals that you have grown and slaughtered yourself?

Also would you have a problem eating insects or fish grown sustainably?

The problem here is that the animal is still being killed.

I started following a vegan lifestyle due to my atheism. I feel that all living beings had one chance of having a life or not exist at all and for me to be responsible for shortening or harming said life is just not something I want on my conscience.

I've never and will never force anyone to do what I do and I've never opening said I'm vegan unless forced to (like being offered biltong). I still go to braais, but I prepare my own food, I like making food for other people that they can enjoy with me.

I only have a problem with the meat eating folk that insist on making snarky comments or try to say what I'm doing is wrong or unhealthy when I'm a 30 year old that's not over or underweight, I take part in trail runs and mountain biking races and generaly keep fit.

You may be able to justify environmental aspects in some areas, but large scale crop farming is responsible for massive damage to eco systems and the environment as well

Crop farming to feed animals are at a much grander scale than feeding humans.

I 2nd that, that's why I eat only organic.
Organic = Less pesticides and no GMO and other "nasties".

My wife is a vegan and I'm vegetarian.
We have a daughter and she's vegetarian by her own choice.

I do not believe GMO is such a bad thing. Many food that we consume everyday are GMO's, like mielies, soy and bananas. Just google what non-GMO bananas look like.

 

[konfab]

The problem here is that the animal is still being killed.

I started following a vegan lifestyle due to my atheism. I feel that all living beings had one chance of having a life or not exist at all and for me to be responsible for shortening or harming said life is just not something I want on my conscience.

I've never and will never force anyone to do what I do and I've never opening said I'm vegan unless forced to (like being offered biltong). I still go to braais, but I prepare my own food, I like making food for other people that they can enjoy with me.

I only have a problem with the meat eating folk that insist on making snarky comments or try to say what I'm doing is wrong or unhealthy when I'm a 30 year old that's not over or underweight, I take part in trail runs and mountain biking races and generaly keep fit.



Crop farming to feed animals are at a much grander scale than feeding humans.



I do not believe GMO is such a bad thing. Many food that we consume everyday are GMO's, like mielies, soy and bananas. Just google what non-GMO bananas look like.

At least you are not anti-GMO, I can work with this.

Do you think nature cares whether animal lives get shortened or not? Fish for example, get eaten by bigger fish, who in turn get eaten by bigger fish. If they are lucky enough to grow old, they will still eventually get eaten by another fish. Can you see a trend here
Same thing with herbivores such as impala in the bush.

The arguments that vegans make about factory farming are sort of correct. However there is a logical fallacy in extending that to all animals. Do you care about the microbes that were killed when your tap water was purified? Do you care about the bacteria in your body when you take anti-biotics? What about insect life? If a mosquito decides that you look like a tasty snack, would you swat it?
What if your cat has a flea infestation? Do you care about the welfare of the fleas you would have to remove or the welfare of the cat.

 

[JeffMan]

Aren't farmers (of agricultural farms) responsible for deforestation of the Amazon?

 

[BCO]

If ethics is a problem for you, would you eat animals that you have grown and slaughtered yourself?

Also would you have a problem eating insects or fish grown sustainably?

No, I don't support the taking of another creature's life for my gustatory pleasure under any circumstances.

 

[BCO]

You may be able to justify environmental aspects in some areas, but large scale crop farming is responsible for massive damage to eco systems and the environment as well

I agree that large scale farming is always harmful. But a very large proportion of mono crops are used for animal feed. These crops could be used more efficiently to feed humans directly (trophic levels and all that).

I'm not so delusional as to assume my diet causes no harm, but this is the definition of veganism: ""Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose."

 

[BCO]

At least you are not anti-GMO, I can work with this.

Do you think nature cares whether animal lives get shortened or not? Fish for example, get eaten by bigger fish, who in turn get eaten by bigger fish. If they are lucky enough to grow old, they will still eventually get eaten by another fish. Can you see a trend here
Same thing with herbivores such as impala in the bush.

That's an appeal to nature.

The arguments that vegans make about factory farming are sort of correct. However there is a logical fallacy in extending that to all animals. Do you care about the microbes that were killed when your tap water was purified? Do you care about the bacteria in your body when you take anti-biotics? What about insect life? If a mosquito decides that you look like a tasty snack, would you swat it?
What if your cat has a flea infestation? Do you care about the welfare of the fleas you would have to remove or the welfare of the cat.

I think most of us would draw the line at a being's ability to suffer. Insects are probably in a bit of a grey area (as far as I am aware), but certainly all vertebrates as well as some invertebrates like octopi etc. are able to feel pain.

With the cat and flea example, if there were no way to remove the fleas without killing them, I'd kill them to spare my cat further suffering. But this is a fairly fringe example and much less cut-and-dry (or relevant) than the dietary choices that people make that affect billions of mammals, birds and fish every year.

 

[broloks]

That video by the OP is sensationalist, not all slaughterhouses are vile and filthy and not all animals suffer like that. What about plants that are "killed" so that you can eat them? Have you ever seen a lion killing and eating it's prey "ethically"?, not that I'm trying to imply that we should not respect other animals, but that is how nature is.

 

[BCO]

That video by the OP is sensationalist, not all slaughterhouses are vile and filthy and not all animals suffer like that.

If it's not an issue about humans needing to eat to survive, then any slaughterhouse no matter how "humane" is still not a necessary thing.

*edit* Here's a sales video for animal processing equipment, showing "best practice". I don't support even this just so that I could enjoy something tasty.

[video=youtube;9EFnfairLes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EFnfairLes[/video]

What about plants that are "killed" so that you can eat them?

a) Plants don't feel pain.
b) Per calorie, meat causes more plants to die than eating the plants directly.

Have you ever seen a lion killing and eating it's prey "ethically"?, not that I'm trying to imply that we should not respect other animals, but that is how nature is.

Lions aren't moral agents, people are. Also, lions are obligate carnivores and require meat for survival. Most people in relatively developed countries don't need meat to survive.

 

[longboy]

I've been a vegetarian from birth. I'm in my 50's and can say with certainty that meat eating is not the necessity that people make it out to be. As for the protein myth - the correct diet debunks this. Even B12 and other vitamins are found in dairy.

 

[BCO]

I've been a vegetarian from birth. I'm in my 50's and can say with certainty that meat eating is not the necessity that people make it out to be. As for the protein myth - the correct diet debunks this. Even B12 and other vitamins are found in dairy.Adolf Hitler was vegetarianas well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism.

But vegetarianism faces the same ethical dilemma as meat eating in terms of animal suffering. Eggs and dairy are very cruel industries overall.

 

[broloks]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not judging vegans or vegetarians, and that I respect your point of view, but I think that there is no way that you can live on earth without effecting someone or something else, for example:

a) Plants don't feel pain.

there has been some research that points to another hypothesis:

[video=youtube;fGLABm7jJ-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y[/video]

and a quick search reveals some peer reviewed and published articles:

http://www.danielchamovitz.com/
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uT68qnAAAAAJ&hl=en

 

[cguy]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not judging vegans or vegetarians, and that I respect your point of view, but I think that there is no way that you can live on earth without effecting someone or something else, for example:

there has been some research that points to another hypothesis:

[video=youtube;fGLABm7jJ-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y[/video]

and a quick search reveals some peer reviewed and published articles:

http://www.danielchamovitz.com/
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uT68qnAAAAAJ&hl=en

"To me thinking and information processing are two different constructs. I have to be careful here since this is really bordering on the philosophical, but I think purposeful thinking necessitates a highly developed brain and autonoetic, or at least noetic, consciousness. Plants exhibit elements of anoetic consciousness which doesn’t include, in my understanding, the ability to think. Just as a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks." - Daniel Chamovitz

 

[BCO]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not judging vegans or vegetarians, and that I respect your point of view, but I think that there is no way that you can live on earth without effecting someone or something else, for example:



there has been some research that points to another hypothesis:

[video=youtube;fGLABm7jJ-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y[/video]

and a quick search reveals some peer reviewed and published articles:

http://www.danielchamovitz.com/
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uT68qnAAAAAJ&hl=en

Even if you grant point (a) - which is very much debatable - point (b) still counts strongly in favour of veganism.

 

[TofuMofu]

At least you are not anti-GMO, I can work with this.

Do you think nature cares whether animal lives get shortened or not? Fish for example, get eaten by bigger fish, who in turn get eaten by bigger fish. If they are lucky enough to grow old, they will still eventually get eaten by another fish. Can you see a trend here
Same thing with herbivores such as impala in the bush.

The arguments that vegans make about factory farming are sort of correct. However there is a logical fallacy in extending that to all animals. Do you care about the microbes that were killed when your tap water was purified? Do you care about the bacteria in your body when you take anti-biotics? What about insect life? If a mosquito decides that you look like a tasty snack, would you swat it?
What if your cat has a flea infestation? Do you care about the welfare of the fleas you would have to remove or the welfare of the cat.

It's not about nature. It's about me. It's what I feel. If an animal dies because a lion caught it, then so be it. I didn't contribute to it.

I have a dog and I prevent fleas. Never needed to cure it.