Turkey siezes four Russian ships

[Seriously]

Talking about that, I see that you now admit to the illegal invasion of the Crimea and Ukraine by the Russians Armed Forces. And thereby also the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner by the Russian Armed Forces.

Doesn't matter anyway, everybody else knows that.

As I said, Putin is a butcher.

LoL, he changed his "circular" colours like a chameleon on that?

 

[Xarog]

Talking about that, I see that you now admit to the illegal invasion of the Crimea and Ukraine by the Russians Armed Forces.

Not at all. I'm just pointing out how your argument would justify such behaviour.

And thereby also the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner by the Russian Armed Forces.

Again, nope.

Doesn't matter anyway, everybody else knows that.

As I said, Putin is a butcher.

So no, you can't address the fact that you presented a false dilemma, and here comes the shifting of goal posts to distract from the weaknesses of your own argument yet again.

Kids love clowns so they at least have something they can say and do to make others laugh. So sad that you cannot be a clown little russian teddy bear?

Oh I'm quite happy to clown around, it's just that it's just that I can also be serious when the need/urge arises. Something which, despite your rather ironic handle, you seem to lack.

 

[Seriously]

Oh I'm quite happy to clown around, it's just that it's just that I can also be serious when the need/urge arises. Something which, despite your rather ironic handle, you seem to lack.

Sad that you do not know what you lack. Many tried to coach you, but here you are still the same old ......

 

[Jola]

Not at all. I'm just pointing out how your argument would justify such behaviour.


Again, nope.

Sorry, don't buy that, you admitted that you accept that the Russian Armed Forces invaded the Ukraine.

Not that it's a secret, but it was nice coming from you.

 

[Xarog]

Sorry, don't buy that, you admitted that you accept that the Russian Armed Forces invaded the Ukraine.

Not that it's a secret, but it was nice coming from you.

You're clearly delusional.

 

[Jola]

You're clearly delusional.

Nope, and thanks for admitting to the Russian invasion.

Why did it take you so long when it was so obvious ?

 

[Xarog]

Nope, and thanks for admitting to the Russian invasion.

Why did it take you so long when it was so obvious ?

Please quote exactly where I made any such admission.

 

[Xarog]

I guess that quote won't be forthcoming, then.

 

[Jola]

Stop going around in circles and just admit that the Russian Army invaded the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, and the Russian Army personnel operated the BUK that shot down the Malaysian airliner.

Also please admit that Putin masterminded the shooting down of the SU-24. Otherwise admit that Putin is a fool and an idiot not to foresee the consequences of his actions. In the latter case that would be a really poor show for a former KGB agent.

I believe that Putin masterminded the SU-24 incident. But I am open to argument that it wasn't that, but that he is an idiot and a fool.

 

[Xarog]

Stop going around in circles and just admit that the Russian Army invaded the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, and the Russian Army personnel operated the BUK that shot down the Malaysian airliner.

Oh, so now I need to "admit" what has apparently already been admitted.

Also please admit that Putin masterminded the shooting down of the SU-24. Otherwise admit that Putin is a fool and an idiot not to foresee the consequences of his actions. In the latter case that would be a really poor show for a former KGB agent.

False dilemma. Again.

 

[DJ...]

Whatever you think you know about these current events relating to Russia, USA, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, and similar, based on news articles, opinion pieces, and publications making the rounds, you're forming your opinions based on the propaganda being published for various purposes (it's not as simple as us vs them). Likewise, it's not entirely accurate IMO to create this false dichotomy just yet based on aggressive PR and what amounts to live ammunition war games from global powers keen to create the perception of an us vs them scenario.

Things are finely balanced right now and it requires careful, calculated diplomacy, and smart risk mitigation and possible engagement preparation. None of these decisions nor discussions involve the contents of a BBC article or Zerohedge opinion piece. There is the exact opposite of transparency taking place and a lot of misinformation campaigns underway. The debates are good, but completely pointless as most of you are not interested in beneficial engagement, nor a broader and deeper understanding of the situation, but rather convincing an artificial opponent that you're right. You're all talking past each other with no intention of a discussion. You might as well be posting a unidirectional status feed and ignore all responses.

The era of connectivity allows us a unique perspective and opportunity to bypass the propaganda and engage each other to our mutual benefit. You're either mature enough and willing to benefit from this (and if ever egos, ideologies, and preconceptions needed to be scrapped, now is the time), or you're simply disinterested in this entirely and have drawn your own battle lines for the sake of it, based on a quarter of a story. Your choice, but I choose to read, learn, absorb, and allow this to inform my opinion, rather than using these platforms as a tool to shout the loudest. You may want to consider doing the same if you believe there's a single threat to safety (which there is), and certain opportunistic nations are using this as a launching pad to further their own agendas. Or simply, if you think it's the mature approach to a serious and present problem...

 

[Jola]

Oh, so now I need to "admit" what has apparently already been admitted.

Yes, otherwise you will deny it again.

False dilemma. Again.

Nope, it's quite clear, Putin is a mastermind or an idiot. Choose.

I put the odds at 60:40.

I hope that someday someone charges him for co-responsibility for the death of the pilot, since, in my view, he orchestrated the whole incident.

Or you can just decide that he is an idiot, and his only responsibility is his negligence and lack of foresight.

Many people will go for the latter, but I don't quite accept that.

 

[Xarog]

Yes, otherwise you will deny it again.

So in other words I never admitted what you claimed I admitted. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nope, it's quite clear, mastermind or idiot. Choose.

I put the odds at 60:40.

I hope that someday someone charges him for co-responsibility for the death of the pilot, since, in my view, he orchestrated the whole incident.

Or you can just decide that he is an idiot, and his only responsibility is his negligence and lack of foresight.

Many people will go for the latter, but I don't quite accept that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[Jola]

The era of connectivity allows us a unique perspective and opportunity to bypass the propaganda and engage each other to our mutual benefit. You're either mature enough and willing to benefit from this (and if ever egos, ideologies, and preconceptions needed to be scrapped, now is the time), or you're simply disinterested in this entirely and have drawn your own battle lines for the sake of it, based on a quarter of a story. Your choice, but I choose to read, learn, absorb, and allow this to inform my opinion, rather than using these platforms as a tool to shout the loudest. You may want to consider doing the same if you believe there's a single threat to safety (which there is), and certain opportunistic nations are using this as a launching pad to further their own agendas. Or simply, if you think it's the mature approach to a serious and present problem...

Sure, but if you look at how the actual players (Putin, Erdogan, Assad, etc) are behaving it just makes you cringe.

There really does not appear to be much thought to many of their actions.

 

[Jola]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Nope, no false dilemma, there are no other options.

If you think that there are, you have certainly have never mentioned them.

Please do so, if you have a good argument, otherwise just accept that either Putin is culpable, or he is a fool.

Most people seem to implicitly accept that he is a fool, by accepting the argument that he couldn't foresee what was going to happen. Everybody, including Turkish analysts knew what was going to happen months before (your argument), so how could he not know what was going to happen ? Of course he knew.

 

[DJ...]

Sure, but if you look at how the actual players (Putin, Erdogan, Assad, etc) are behaving it just makes you cringe.

There really does not appear to be much thought to many of their actions.

Cringe away, but you're still the pawn, not the Queen. And the pawn in this playbook has zero insight into the overall strategy and ultimate end goal. You're reading carefully released and timed propaganda by the players who are keeping their cards close to their chests.

And their public image is being carefully and selectively managed on both sides of the artificial battle lines they want you to draw. Unless something massive leaks, you're reading information because someone wants you to, because it aligns with their strategy or further solidifies the battle lines. You can argue with each other, or accept that in doing so and reverting to ad hominem, you're the equivalent of a digital foot soldier for the agency/nation responsible for the original PR release, which in all likelihood may not be the "side" you're more inclined to support...

Edit: I also see rationale in everything all nations/agencies have publicly stated on the matter, other than the Saudis and ISIS. USA got a headstart on energy control yonks ago, and Russia are playing some public and behind the scenes catch up using vulnerable organisations and nations as proxies or victims. It's still politics, but it's teetering on military engagement primarily. China is the benefactor either way but has political imperatives to see Russia maintain primary supply and economic benefit. Step back a bit. USA has built a good ME control by Israeli proxy and diplomatic ties but the Saudis simply cannot be trusted. Russians thought they were doing the same, but failed. This is the result of that. And there's no way any of us will publicly know for sure who the protagonist in each incident is. And remember that the protagonists are not just USA and Russia. Think more strategically, and remember that one allies with a nation for reciprocal benefit. Each gains something a little different from the other, and each has different incentives for certain action and inaction.

This is hardly as simple as Russia wanting control and doing so at all costs. It's also far more complex than the USA securing pricing control in ME or influence at least, and ensuring a stable local production price point, as well as culminating this all with a China supply drive. Each player is engaged in an "economic land grab" at the moment. It can be driven by diplomacy or military, or both. There is no such thing as an innocent "side" in this. It's simply the nature of the nonsense that is borders, reinforced by fervent ideologies and often antiquated thinking and strategies. If you think the USSR collapse was just accepted, you're mistaken. If you think the USA were willing to accept being economically dictated to on energy and other key balance sheet and currency drivers, you're mistaken. If you think the Saudis ever underestimated their control in this matter, and their ability to temporarily play puppeteer, you're mistaken. If you think China have been stock piling foreign currency for years to the point of major volatility and liquidity influence for the sake of it, you're mistaken. If you think there are smaller proxies and nations using this to their advantage, you're 100% correct, and that causes problems for the diplomacy route. If you think that stability in the Middle East was in USA, UK, France, Germany, Russia, or China's benefit, you're wrong. Destabilising the area is in everyone's long term benefit and furthers their cause, but handling the fallout (ISIS is proving more difficult than expected, although they're a common enemy). This is the culmination of decades of planning, strategy, and execution. None of you know which country benefits from diplomacy and which has crazier military objectives. And China hasn't even begun to play its hand yet, which could catalyse everything one way or another. So IMHO this constant back and forth playing digital foot soldiers, sourcing dodgy sources to backup your unrelenting point of view, without proper regard for the actual debate and reasoned opinions of those you're engaging with, is the mindset of an immature perspective on the matter. Take advantage of the tools at your disposal. Allow news and opinions to inform your intellectual collateral on the matter, and use your own filtering. Ignore traditional moron conspiracy sites like Icke and Jones, and research properly.

While it's never quite what it appears to be on the surface, it doesn't take all that much to identify source material and follow the abundance of history on this situation, which is actually more critical to the situation than current affairs, at least in terms of informing one's opinions and facts. It's not aliens, but it's almost certainly not what Fox, CNN, RT, Zerohedge, BBC, and other carefully selected media and opinion sites are trying to convince you it is. They're issuing propaganda for the man in the trailer likely to aggressively defend their position without question. They're not trying to win the intellectual over, as you're in the minority...

 

[Xarog]

Nope, no false dilemma, there are no other options.

If you think that there are, you have certainly have never mentioned them.

Please do so, if you have a good argument, otherwise just accept that either Putin is culpable, or he is a fool.

Most people seem to implicitly accept that he is a fool, by accepting the argument that he couldn't foresee what was going to happen. Everybody, including Turkish analysts knew what was going to happen months before (your argument), so how could he not know what was going to happen ? Of course he knew.

Turkish analysts did not know what was going to happen months before it happened. A whistleblower within Ergodan's party who remains anonymous tweeted that plans were being made to that effect.

Unless Russia's intelligence services somehow saw the tweet, realised its significance and then passed that information on to Putin, it's hard to see how you think that's evidence that he'd be aware of Turkey's intentions.

And given the fact that the Turkish planes had to launch to intercept the Russian SU-24 long before it came anywhere near Turkish territory, the only logical explanation of them being in the right place at the right time was if America passed that information on to Turkey, and again why should anyone have expected the Americans to do such a thing?

And then there's your unsupported assertion that Turkey's diplomatic noises about the Turkmen being attacked would somehow magically be "obvious" to anyone that it means Turkey was now prepared to attack a Russian jet to get even over a supposed 17 second border violation, which according to Turkish claims means that the jet was [-]flying[/-] falling at stall speed.

So no, it's not a case of "of course" he knew, and him not knowing doesn't make him a fool in the least.

Your argument is terribad; the reason that I haven't bothered to point out the obvious is because frankly the idea that anyone has to do it is obscene.

 

[Jola]

Your argument is very poor, and much of that has been addressed before.

Turkey carpeted the Russian Ambassador about this just the week before, and warned him that there would be "serious consequences" if the Turkmen were attacked again.

No, you are again falling into the trap of accepting that Putin was a fool.

I don't buy that, the Russians knew what was going to happen, they played the Turks like a harp.

Putin bears some responsibility for the death of the Russian pilot. Obviously, he couldn't have known that the Turkmen would shoot him out of the sky, but he created the whole scenario.

 

[Xarog]

Edit: I also see rationale in everything all nations/agencies have publicly stated on the matter, other than the Saudis and ISIS. USA got a headstart on energy control yonks ago, and Russia are playing some public and behind the scenes catch up using vulnerable organisations and nations as proxies or victins. It's still politics, but it's teetering on military engagement primarily. China is the benefactor either way but has political imperatives to see Russia maintain primary supply and economic benefit. Step back a bit. USA has built a good ME control by Israeli proxy and diplomatic ties but the Saudis simply cannot be trusted. Russians thought they were doing the same, but failed. This is the result of that. And there's no way any of us will publicly know for sure who the protagonist in each incident is...

No, not really. The Russians are ahead in the energy game because this conflict is about energy supplies to Europe, which Russia has a stranglehold over. That's what Ukraine was really about, and that's also what the conflict in Syria is about. Qatar and Saudi Arabia's support of the Syrian rebels really took off in 2013 after Assad refused to agree to Qatar's proposal while citing loyalty to the Russian proposal instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline

Iran is also making a major play to become the regional hegemon. Assad is pretty much their guy in Syria, and through Syria is how Iran manages to support Shiite Hezbollah (who just happen to be fighting alongside the Russians and Syrian government. Coincedence? Nah.) Iran is also backing the Houthis in Yemen which the Saudis are fighting directly. It should also be noted that Iran pretty much gets to dictate Iraqi politics these days, so I'm not really sure why you claim that the USA has built good ME control when clearly they've lost control of the situation entirely.

Where you're wrong is in claiming that Russia's primary mechanism of engagement is military. If you look carefully at the way they react to conflicts, military responses is always the last recourse. They much prefer to use economic soft power to get what they want; with Ukraine as an example, they played economic tit for tat with the EU right up until the point that the Americans orchestrated a coup. It was only when economics became meaningless that they resorted to other means to ensure their security needs and regional interests were met.

And frankly, so long as Europe is dependent on Russian energy is exactly how long it is impossible for the Americans to convince the Europeans to go to war with Russia. And that's a good thing for every person on the planet. As far as I'm concerned, there's no us vs. them in this regard. It's just me and everyone else who's in the same boat.

 

[Xarog]

Your argument is very poor, and much of that has been addressed before.

Turkey carpeted the Russian Ambassador about this just the week before, and warned him that there would be "serious consequences" if the Turkmen were attacked again.

And how should the Russians smell if these consequences are political, economic or military?

No, you are again falling into the trap of accepting that Putin was a fool.

Nope, I clearly dispute your assertion that there's anything in the situation which could reasonably imply Putin behaved foolishly.

I don't buy that, the Russians knew what was going to happen, they played the Turks like a harp.

Buy whatever you want, just don't assert that it's a reasonable conclusion without reasonable evidence.

Putin bears some responsibility for the death of the Russian pilot. Obviously, he couldn't have known that the Turkmen would shoot him out of the sky, but he created the whole scenario.

So, wait, you're saying that the Turkmen are not involved in the Syrian civil war?