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Ubuntu 9.04 For the Windows Power User
- Thread starter dequadin
- Start date
MyWorld
Executive Member
If it is Ubuntu, then it is Gnome.
To the casual observer, it looks pretty DE agnostic, but if you look closely, you'll see that the panels are just "hidden". So Gnome.
It came with Firefox beta ?? That's weird.
my personal feel is that this is why linux is not for the mainstream (and something i actually don't mind). the command line is part and parcel of linux. ubuntu and some other distros may try to hide this, but the command line is principle to linux.
and i do not think it is something linus (nor any others of the forerunners) would change.
maybe ubuntu is the midpoint many choose today. but i started with suse 8.x moved through till 9.3. Floundering with setting up an aztech usb modem for weeks.
today i appreciate that experience. my thought on linux is that the people who produced don't want it to be a Windows replacement. They want it to be a system that works for people who aren't scared to get their sleeves up.
It is my belief that eventually Ubuntu will come to loggerheads with the principle of Linux and have to move out of the path and become seperate (eg BSD,Unix,Solaris). From what I have seen from using SUSE, Mandrake, Fedora, Debian and Gentoo; I just cannot see Linux moving away from the principle of the command line is an integral part of the OS.
Hope the above is not a rant.
EDIT: Yep it is a rant. Basically I do not care for Windows power users who are not willing to learn something completely different to Windows. If they want Windows, then they must continue to use Windows (or build their own OS). Linux must make NO apologies for having a command line.
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MyWorld
Executive Member
I totally agree with you milomak, and if it is too hard, or too geeky or to CLi, or whatever, nobody is forcing it on you. If ever you want to get ahead on Linux you WILL need to learn it properly.
Anyway, this is far off-topic.
Anyway, this is far off-topic.
and let me add that what I said above doesn't exclude the installation of a system for someone who just wants to browse the internet, read email, listen to music and watch video. This can be done as a one time install (like it is meant t be for windows) and the person can use their computer without ever having to touch the console.
But we will agree this is not a power user. And that this person would probably be comfortable with any OS as long as you point out where they have to go for each of the functions.
But we will agree this is not a power user. And that this person would probably be comfortable with any OS as long as you point out where they have to go for each of the functions.
chiskop
Executive Member
Completely agreed.
Yes, except the kind of people who try and stick with linux are the kind of people who enjoy learning something new. Learning the command line is the something comes naturally as you progress, and is fun.
And the same goes for all the questions about "How do I get $WindowsApp running under wine?" - use what's there. Debian has what, 15 000?, packages ready to install and explore.
If that's not for you, stick with the OS you know.
Dave
Honorary Master
I've tried Ubuntu twice now, I bought my first Toshiba NB100 with the Netbook Remix 8.04 version installed about 6 months ago, gave it a very quick whirl and when I found all the problems with programs like Photoshop (gimp is a very poor alternative), Nokia Data Suite (no alternative) and some navigation/mapping programs I use (again no alternative) so I installed a 250GB drive and a nice new copy of XP.
I never really looked back as XP did everything I wanted, but I always had a little nagging thought to see what was so good with Linux that made some people almost view it in an evangelical way. By coincidence I passed the shop I bought my first NB100 from and they had a demo model for sale with 50% off so I thought it was a chance to use it to mess about with Ubuntu again as my original was still going strong and doing everything I needed for business.
So I get it home, and fire up, first problem is the fact that the shop had installed a password on the machine (not a problem I thought, as they had told me the password, and I naively thought it would be like XP and switch the password off in the control panel), no such luck, I searched online, read the instructions, seemed as if the password was there for good.
Then I thought I would follow a step by step instruction to remove OO2 and install OO3, I found the correct file and downloaded it, I followed all the stupid command line sudo this and sudo that and removed OO2, and then guess what, the sudo command for the OO3 wouldn't work, I gave up intending to use synaptic to find the old OO, unfortunately there were about 20 plugins for OO but I couldn't find the actual OO2 install - by now I was wishing for a simple windows .exe file and for a simple add/remove command....I decided to give up on that for a while as well.
I thought I may as well use the Ubuntu machine just for the internet (after all the virus scare stories), so I found some instructions and installed my bluetooth dongle, only problem was the program would only allow file transfer and phone explorer, no dial up. Googling the problem brings up thousands of hits, but everyone seems to have a different solution, but unfortunately every solution entailed about an A4 page of opening terminal windows and sudo this, and apt that.
At this stage (3 days after buying the NB100) I reached for my copy of XP and 3 hours later had a fully functioning laptop with full bluetooth working, a working copy of OO3, and a working HSDPA link to my phone.
I have no resentment to Linux, but until it has the ability to work, and by that I mean install programs from a .exe and they just work without any further messing about, until then Linux can continue to be a little hobbyOS for 1% of computer users to play with, I doubt many "average" PC users will put up with all the hoop jumping just to get to an OS that almost emulates an OS that is now over 10 years old.
I never really looked back as XP did everything I wanted, but I always had a little nagging thought to see what was so good with Linux that made some people almost view it in an evangelical way. By coincidence I passed the shop I bought my first NB100 from and they had a demo model for sale with 50% off so I thought it was a chance to use it to mess about with Ubuntu again as my original was still going strong and doing everything I needed for business.
So I get it home, and fire up, first problem is the fact that the shop had installed a password on the machine (not a problem I thought, as they had told me the password, and I naively thought it would be like XP and switch the password off in the control panel), no such luck, I searched online, read the instructions, seemed as if the password was there for good.
Then I thought I would follow a step by step instruction to remove OO2 and install OO3, I found the correct file and downloaded it, I followed all the stupid command line sudo this and sudo that and removed OO2, and then guess what, the sudo command for the OO3 wouldn't work, I gave up intending to use synaptic to find the old OO, unfortunately there were about 20 plugins for OO but I couldn't find the actual OO2 install - by now I was wishing for a simple windows .exe file and for a simple add/remove command....I decided to give up on that for a while as well.
I thought I may as well use the Ubuntu machine just for the internet (after all the virus scare stories), so I found some instructions and installed my bluetooth dongle, only problem was the program would only allow file transfer and phone explorer, no dial up. Googling the problem brings up thousands of hits, but everyone seems to have a different solution, but unfortunately every solution entailed about an A4 page of opening terminal windows and sudo this, and apt that.
At this stage (3 days after buying the NB100) I reached for my copy of XP and 3 hours later had a fully functioning laptop with full bluetooth working, a working copy of OO3, and a working HSDPA link to my phone.
I have no resentment to Linux, but until it has the ability to work, and by that I mean install programs from a .exe and they just work without any further messing about, until then Linux can continue to be a little hobbyOS for 1% of computer users to play with, I doubt many "average" PC users will put up with all the hoop jumping just to get to an OS that almost emulates an OS that is now over 10 years old.
Have to disagree there. If a user expects Linux to emulate Windows (I assume that was the implied OS), they'll probably be frustrated by the experience. I've had no serious issues using Synaptic to install and uninstall the official software. Also don't mind using the CLI to install unusual apps.
Windows does seem to make the user experience simpler, but fixing issues can be every bit as difficult as for a Linux-based PC. The difference (IMO) is that I feel safer working in Linux, am able to do all of the productive tasks I need to, as well as many of the non-productive ones. Plus, I don't pay for the OS or software. Those are major benefits.
Linux has a radically different learning experience and requires an interest in adapting to the difference, but has definite rewards. For the rest, they have every right to pay for Windows and enjoy the comfort zone, whilst living with the instability and insecurity.
Have to disagree there. If a user expects Linux to emulate Windows (I assume that was the implied OS), they'll probably be frustrated by the experience. I've had no serious issues using Synaptic to install and uninstall the official software. Also don't mind using the CLI to install unusual apps.
Windows does seem to make the user experience simpler, but fixing issues can be every bit as difficult as for a Linux-based PC. The difference (IMO) is that I feel safer working in Linux, am able to do all of the productive tasks I need to, as well as many of the non-productive ones. Plus, I don't pay for the OS or software. Those are major benefits.
Linux has a radically different learning experience and requires an interest in adapting to the difference, but has definite rewards. For the rest, they have every right to pay for Windows and enjoy the comfort zone, whilst living with the instability and insecurity.
+1
Have to agree with you on that one.
Working with Linux has been nothing but rewarding for me and I personally enjoy firing up my terminal and dishing commands from it. Nowadays I dread having to login to windows because to me it just seems as a dumb OS. With Linux I feel in control and I know that any faults are of my own doing and not from the OS as opposed to Windows which will routinely slow down and die on you e.g. BSOD.
Sorry to say it mate, but you fall into the typical trap of a windows user that wants Linux to be just like it.
Regarding the password, if I was prompted by a password to logon to windows, offhand I wouldn't have a clue what to do. I'd have to google.
Incidentally, the sudo command, far from being a stupid command is vital to keeping your system safe.
With regards installing programmes in linux, I can go to the terminal and type sudo apt-get install [application], and it will download and install automatically, or if I don't know the name, I can find it in synaptic.
Unfortunately, I've been forced back to Windows for Adobe purposes, and I can't tell you how irritating it is, when I have to:
(1) Google the site of the program maker
(2) Find the download page
(3) Download the application
(4) Click save application (as apposed to run)
(4) Find and launch the .exe file
(5) Click OK when prompted that this is not a trusted application
(6) Click next about 20 times
(7) Face irritating messages about whether I want to put a short-cut on my desktop etc...
Finally, much many distractions and much later, I get the application working on my system.
There's not doubt in my mind, when it comes to installing applicaitons, linux kicks windows.
Lastly, I can't stand how slow Windows is compared to Ubuntu. I'm running XP on a 5-year old computer with 1.5 GB ram, and somehow, after a day or 2 of leaving it on, Windows conspires to make each application to over a minute to open and close. Not to mention those irritating virus scans.
Having spent the time getting to know Ubuntu, I can tell you that Windows is really badly designed in comparison.
[Grandmaster post]
chiskop
Executive Member
/off-topic
Congrats grandmaster Tassidar
Congrats grandmaster Tassidar
Jonny Two Shoes
Expert Member
TBH Linux isn't always that easy. Try installing something and when it doesn't work you eventually find out through lots of forum searching that some other package needs to be installed as well for it to work...but you get confused because the names of some of them are weird and misleading. But I supposed this would be 3rd party developer at fault?
And honest to goodness I had Linux GUI crash on me after an update. I could never get it back up again it was such a mess (almost as though I had lost permissions to just about every file on the PC and trying to reset it in root didn't work - as a noob linux user I was totally lost and had to format reinstall :/)
But I must say Linux did make me feel more in control and I liked it. Still pity about the games
so back to windows it was
And honest to goodness I had Linux GUI crash on me after an update. I could never get it back up again it was such a mess (almost as though I had lost permissions to just about every file on the PC and trying to reset it in root didn't work - as a noob linux user I was totally lost and had to format reinstall :/)
But I must say Linux did make me feel more in control and I liked it. Still pity about the games
so back to windows it wasAgreed. I still have so many people asking me why I use the command line. They say that since a GUI alternative to a lot of what I do is available, I should use it. So I took one of them up on a challenge. They had never heard of sed or awk, which I used to rename an entire directory's contents, nor had they seen the verbosity of many troubleshooting commands I used. But at the end of it all, they were still protecting their precious GUI. It seems that people just resist change and are scared to learn something new.
I kind of enjoy feeling geeky. When I need to get something done and I bring down a terminal and start mashing away at the keys typing some long and obscure command, it gives me sick pleasure. In addition, I know that the command will take 1% of the time that the GUI approach would, and there's no ambiguity.
It has been said again and again that if you NEED proprietary applications to work, then you should stick with the operating system that where they DO work.
For starters, the user access control on Linux is there for a reason. Maybe you find it a bother or a hindrance, but it serves to provide assurance that unauthorized parties have not tampered with things that they shouldn't be tampering with. Secondly, this seems to be more of a problem with your searching ability than with Linux's ability to make removing your password easy.
Bluetooth compatibility is a well-discussed topic all over the internet. Again, it seems that it says more about your searching ability than the operating system. I have plenty of hardware that just refuses to work in Windows with no feasible workaround.
When you say the sudo command for OO3 didn't work, well I'm guessing that you hadn't added the repositories required to download OO3. In which case, this says more about your reading ability (I have yet to find a guide where installation of a non-standard package is required where they DON'T make it abundantly clear that you need to add a new repository.
You say it as if ANYONE could have gotten XP up and running. I disagree. I routinely get calls from my dad with him complaining about his work notebook, where this went wrong or that went wrong, and he complains about how things are not consistent enough (with regards to fixing the problem). Conversely his personal notebook runs Ubuntu, and while he didn't do much in the setup process aside from choosing his password, once everything was up and running, I haven't had any calls about it yet.
I also don't agree that "the ability to work" is the same as "the ability to install programs from a .exe". Aside from that, .deb packages do exactly this. You download the .deb, double click it, put in your password, and it goes about its merry way. Conversely, as mentioned above, on Windows you have to jump through hoops to get programs installed. And debs aren't even the more powerful way of doing things; using a package manager is far more powerful, and using the repos from the command line is even more powerful.
Linux's goal was never to emulate Windows. If it was, it would have achieved it long ago. Instead, it offers an alternative way of doing things. Some people find this hard to believe, after having used Windows for so long and thinking that it must be the best way of getting things done. I'm far from a Linux expert. I'm still learning. But I've seen time and time again that the rewards from learning how to get things done in Linux far outweighs the effort it took to get there.
It says something about the Windows user who bashes Linux about not being enough like Windows. It says that they don't understand the point of Linux.
It also says something about the Windows user who says that Linux is too difficult. It says that because Linux is not exactly the same as Windows, they are reluctant to learn a new way of doing something. And this would be fine, except they make it out to be Linux's fault.
Finally, it says a lot about a Windows user who feels that because they weren't able to get the system installed and configured properly that NO "average" user is able to. Perhaps you are just not quite the PC-freak that you thought you were.
I'm sorry if I've been harsh in this post. It was not intended to offend. But more and more of these kinds of replies are appearing, and it feels like it's finally time to respond.
You want linux to be windows and that is not going to happen, it's not the same thing and I pray to god it never becomes that either.
Dave
Honorary Master
That is probably true, but perhaps it's because I'm one of the lucky ones who has no problem with installing and configuring XP on a machine, and having it working properly in a couple of hours. This has been the norm for me since installing Windows 3.1 on my first 286 laptop in the 90's. I would also hope and expect to do the same with Linux, perhaps naively.
And after a bit of thought I decided to try ubuntu again, and instead of using the 8.04 which is the version it shipped with I downloaded the .img of 9.04 and have installed it as a dual boot on my original Toshiba with the 250GB HDD and on the second install (I only allocated it 10GB the first time and it complained of insufficient space), after upping that to 25GB of HDD it has installed well and seems to be far better than 8.04, plugging both my Huawei dongle and Nokia in worked first time, and the OO installation was also successful first time around.
I'm actually posting this from FF3 on the ubuntu partition and as I said I am open minded enough to give it a fair go, so far 9.04 seems to work well.
chiskop
Executive Member
Excellent - well done.
Sorry, if we sounded rude. But linux is not windows and is not trying to be windows. Things seem difficult becuase you're not used to the linux way of doing things or the world of linux apps. It gets a lot easier when you stop expecting it to work in the same way windows does, and when you let go of your windows apps.
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
There's only 2 reason why u like linux command ...
1. Makes u feel geeky
2. Makes u think you smarter and "cooler" then windows users
adrianx
Expert Member
Oh really. How interesting.
I don't know what to say, our secret is out! I knew this day would come.
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