'Unless SA gets smarter, we will get poorer'

[dlk001]

Well, I'm currently an MSc student who will be upgrading to PhD

Cograds and wish you all the best. I also did MSc Eng. Mine was 8 courses plus research project. I also have a passion for research. I worked for CSIR which is where I got my MSc.

I can guarantee you that there is a big demand even for just BEng's, PhDs even more so. From what I gather (from reliable sources) I can bank that a graduate pay of an MSc/PhD is twice as high as the graduate pay of a BEng.

Salaries are debatable and it depends on which industry you work in. If you work for CSIR or in R&D related industry, then a PhD person will earn much higher than BEng. However, in consulting and contracting industry, a PhD graduate does not earn double to BSc Eng. In fact you can check www.engineeringcareers.co.za to see what engineering skills pay the most. Getting a Pr Eng (experience) is what pays the most. I don’t see PhD as a requirement in many listed jobs, unless you have some links to show me. I still think most engineering graduates are interested in getting a Pr Eng. The definition of a competent person in Engineering is a Pr Eng. Because Pr Engs are low and aging (average age is over 50) it has become the most paying qualification.

I worked for research, contracting and now consulting industry. In my company we have two partners who have PhD's and they don't earn more than other partners who have MSc or BSc. In consulting, people get paid for Pr Eng, work experience, your ability to attract clients and your ability to deliver work on budget and time.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Cograds and wish you all the best. I also did MSc Eng. Mine was 8 courses plus research project. I also have a passion for research. I worked for CSIR which is where I got my MSc.

Salaries are debatable and it depends on which industry you work in. If you work for CSIR or in R&D related industry, then a PhD person will earn much higher than BEng. However, in consulting and contracting industry, a PhD graduate does not earn double to BSc Eng. In fact you can check www.engineeringcareers.co.za to see what engineering skills pay the most. Getting a Pr Eng (experience) is what pays the most. I don’t see PhD as a requirement in many listed jobs, unless you have some links to show me. I still think most engineering graduates are interested in getting a Pr Eng. The definition of a competent person in Engineering is a Pr Eng. Because Pr Engs are low and aging (average age is over 50) it has become the most paying qualification.

I worked for research, contracting and now consulting industry. In my company we have two partners who have PhD's and they don't earn much more than other partners who have MSc or BSc. In consulting, its all about work experience, your ability to attract clients and your ability to deliver work on budget and time.

I do agree. The main reasons for me doing masters and now phd is because I want to be paid more and there is now jobs in south africa for me at the moment (nanotechnology).
Thus, having a phd and working as a contractor or consultant won't do as I won't be using my "phd knowledge", only my "bEng knowledge" and I will be earning much less that I would like. With a BEng the chances that you are going to get work in R&D is nearly zero, so you have to have a msc or phd. It would be nice to get paid double what a BEng gets, but I doubt if that will be the case, but then again, you cannot really compare the two as the two will very seldom work in the exact same field.

 

[UnUnOctium]

Cograds and wish you all the best. I also did MSc Eng. Mine was 8 courses plus research project. I also have a passion for research. I worked for CSIR which is where I got my MSc.

Salaries are debatable and it depends on which industry you work in. If you work for CSIR or in R&D related industry, then a PhD person will earn much higher than BEng. However, in consulting and contracting industry, a PhD graduate does not earn double to BSc Eng. In fact you can check www.engineeringcareers.co.za to see what engineering skills pay the most. Getting a Pr Eng (experience) is what pays the most. I don’t see PhD as a requirement in many listed jobs, unless you have some links to show me. I still think most engineering graduates are interested in getting a Pr Eng. The definition of a competent person in Engineering is a Pr Eng. Because Pr Engs are low and average age is 50 it has become the most paying qualification.

It's true that the biggest money is indeed in consultancy but also in R&D and other companies where specialists are required. The problem is, you can have a million and 1 consultants, they're useless if no one has developed anything new which then needs the approval of a pr. eng. The market forces (supply and demand really) always have a way to 'incentivize' different career paths (though one can be a PhD & Pr. Eng. as I'm sure you know) be it R&D vs Consulting. I'm sure you know the job market better than me for engineers but I'm pretty sure that it takes a while for the BEng to become a Pr Eng while the PhD is doing (CPD-point-earning) work which will eventually make him register as a Pr Eng too. Can't help but think that it gives you quite a head start, financially.

P.S. there is also a notable difference in the yuppie's life where a PhD will promote them that much quicker than a BEng to top managerial spots.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

It's true that the biggest money is indeed in consultancy but also in R&D and other companies where specialists are required. The problem is, you can have a million and 1 consultants, they're useless if no one has developed anything new which then needs the approval of a pr. eng. The market forces (supply and demand really) always have a way to 'incentivize' different career paths (though one can be a PhD & Pr. Eng. as I'm sure you know) be it R&D vs Consulting. I'm sure you know the job market better than me for engineers but I'm pretty sure that it takes a while for the BEng to become a Pr Eng while the PhD is doing (CPD-point-earning) work which will eventually make him register as a Pr Eng too. Can't help but think that it gives you quite a head start, financially.

After BEng you can try to qualify for Pr Eng after just three years. If you did enough work under a Pr Eng and you can convince the engineering board that you can conduct yourself as a professional engineer, you can become a Pr Eng. If you have a MScEng or PhD, you must work for 2 years before you can go for Pr Eng. I don't really see the point in Pr Eng if you have PhD?

 

[UnUnOctium]

After BEng you can try to qualify for Pr Eng after just three years. If you did enough work under a Pr Eng and you can convince the engineering board that you can conduct yourself as a professional engineer, you can become a Pr Eng. If you have a MScEng or PhD, you must work for 2 years before you can go for Pr Eng. I don't really see the point in Pr Eng if you have PhD?

Have read about the 3 year minimum requirement, I'm not sure how many actually get it in 3 years but the way I see it, the PhD arms you with knowledge which very few have while also giving you the ticket to the highest tiers of the big companies. One way I can think of taking advantage of that is after a Pr Eng registration, one can then use that knowledge to start their own consultancy in a key area. I would think that the guy who just spent 3 years under another Pr Eng's supervision will be at a bit of a disadvantage should they wish to start their own consultancy since it will be 'just another consulting firm' instead of one specialising in a key, emerging area. That's my view, critique welcome.

 

[dlk001]

I would think that the guy who just spent 3 years under another Pr Eng's supervision will be at a bit of a disadvantage should they wish to start their own consultancy since it will be 'just another consulting firm' instead of one specialising in a key, emerging area. That's my view, critique welcome.

However, experience does not show that a PhD is advantageous in starting a consultancy firm and running a successful company.

Developing new science technologies is one important part of the equation. Transferring that technology is another part. Marketing the resulting product is another part. A lot of people who are making money in consulting are doing so because of business strategic skills.

I’ve seen a few people with PhD who develop great science but fail in technology transfer. I worked for a company that produces the best Finite Element Codes in Geotechnical Engineering but that does not transfer to more money. One of our competitors told me “You guys work hard to make the software 100% accurate whilst we work hard to market our software as user friendly and adaptive. That’s why we make more money”.

 

[UnUnOctium]

However, experience does not show that a PhD is advantageous in starting a consultancy firm and running a successful company.

Developing new science technologies is one important part of the equation. Transferring that technology is another part. Marketing the resulting product is another part. A lot of people who are making money in consulting are doing so because of business strategic skills.

I’ve seen a few people with PhD who develop great science but fail in technology transfer. I worked for a company that produces the best Finite Element Codes in Geotechnical Engineering but that does not transfer to more money. One of our competitors told me “You guys work hard to make the software 100% accurate whilst we work hard to market our software as user friendly and adaptive. That’s why we make more money”.

Valid, though one would argue that it's just business acumen rather than career path at that point. We did derail the thread a bit but thanks for the 'sneak peek' Speaking of which, know if there's anything happening in CT with regards to higher level degrees (except academia) since I dread going back to GP but I'm guessing that there will be no other option

 

[dlk001]

Valid, though one would argue that it's just business acumen rather than career path at that point. We did derail the thread a bit but thanks for the 'sneak peek' Speaking of which, know if there's anything happening in CT with regards to higher level degrees (except academia) since I dread going back to GP but I'm guessing that there will be no other option

I sent you a PM! We did derail but the topic is still on PhDs.

 

[scotty777]

Hmmm, I firmly believe it's the education system from primary to secondary that is the big stuff up.

I too am studying engineering (electrical and at wits, so it's the knob degree in 1st year ). But thus far, unless you have a mind of liking to Einstein, or a mind that is just really good at problem solving, you're not going to survive it...

Simply put, the education system doesn't teach kids how to think properly, and under prepares kids for university, that 30% is expected to pass just 1st year, which is a massive drop from previous years. I think this speaks for itself.

 

[UnUnOctium]

Hmmm, I firmly believe it's the education system from primary to secondary that is the big stuff up.

I too am studying engineering (electrical and at wits, so it's the knob degree in 1st year ). But thus far, unless you have a mind of liking to Einstein, or a mind that is just really good at problem solving, you're not going to survive it...

Simply put, the education system doesn't teach kids how to think properly, and under prepares kids for university, that 30% is expected to pass just 1st year, which is a massive drop from previous years. I think this speaks for itself.

That hasn't changed much Once you get to 3rd year you'll see what I'm talking about. When I was in first year (2006), the 'filter course' was Circuits 121, 30% pass rate

You'll see that passing in university (or engineering at least) is based on stats and that as long as you're above the class average, you'll pass (save for special circumstances like filter [not Butterworth or Chebyshev] courses).
Though I maybe shouldn't be telling you this else you will start slacking

 

[battletoad]

As i see it, most graduates believe (for the most part) that PhD leads one to become only a lecturer. And to be honest lecturing isn't close to bad as a job. Being committed to completing a PhD is awfully difficult where your friends of old are getting by quite well with matric/degree and you still have to suffer. Half the time my friends are having the time of their lives while I have to scrounge around to get that last R2 for a gatsby!

Also keep in mind that, as far as the race thing goes, black graduates feel obligated to start working asap since they may have people to support who've supported them over the years. I've a friend who's studying law (this dude is quite the survivor, he attends seminars weekly for the food!), we occasionally have these conversations over this and that (we're both coloured btw). One conversation highlighted this:
-In our generalised viewpoint, in white households the emphasis is on education. The children go as far as they can academically. The parents get by and don't necessarily want to be a burden on the children.
-In non-white households, the children have to care for the parents. They may go study, but there's this nagging suspicion at the back of the mind that time is limited and someday soon I'll have to look after mom/pop/whoever. So with industry spreading the rumour that graduates are worth nothing really, i have to start gaining experience. So much for postgrad.
My gf would dearly like to come back and study a postgrad degree in biosciences but she has to work for the family (she's the eldest, her dad has diabetes). Quite sad, she has bucket loads of potential. So in light of this i believe it'll take 10-20 years before race becomes a non-issue wrt academics.

Then there's the question of standards. I've seen people from other universities memorising their way thru mathematics (proofs and whatnot) its just not funny. Since its a national phenomenon the blame is placed squarely on the secondary schooling system. Perhaps more is needed from parents, perhaps OBE was the killer (tough to blame teachers for all the mess). Either way some framework needs to be ratified to fix this issue.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

As i see it, most graduates believe (for the most part) that PhD leads one to become only a lecturer. And to be honest lecturing isn't close to bad as a job. Being committed to completing a PhD is awfully difficult where your friends of old are getting by quite well with matric/degree and you still have to suffer. Half the time my friends are having the time of their lives while I have to scrounge around to get that last R2 for a gatsby!

Also keep in mind that, as far as the race thing goes, black graduates feel obligated to start working asap since they may have people to support who've supported them over the years. I've a friend who's studying law (this dude is quite the survivor, he attends seminars weekly for the food!), we occasionally have these conversations over this and that (we're both coloured btw). One conversation highlighted this:
-In our generalised viewpoint, in white households the emphasis is on education. The children go as far as they can academically. The parents get by and don't necessarily want to be a burden on the children.
-In non-white households, the children have to care for the parents. They may go study, but there's this nagging suspicion at the back of the mind that time is limited and someday soon I'll have to look after mom/pop/whoever. So with industry spreading the rumour that graduates are worth nothing really, i have to start gaining experience. So much for postgrad.
My gf would dearly like to come back and study a postgrad degree in biosciences but she has to work for the family (she's the eldest, her dad has diabetes). Quite sad, she has bucket loads of potential. So in light of this i believe it'll take 10-20 years before race becomes a non-issue wrt academics.

Then there's the question of standards. I've seen people from other universities memorising their way thru mathematics (proofs and whatnot) its just not funny. Since its a national phenomenon the blame is placed squarely on the secondary schooling system. Perhaps more is needed from parents, perhaps OBE was the killer (tough to blame teachers for all the mess). Either way some framework needs to be ratified to fix this issue.

You do make an important point about the culture aspect. I met a PhD student at Stellenbosch, doing his work in telecoms (at the media lab). He is from Zim, and he too has to support his parents. All the choices he makes he makes with respect to his parents. Luckily they aren't really poor, so they don't need the money so bad now, but one day he must take care of them. Where the white will stick their parents in a home when they become a burden (ok, not all whites, maybe a bit of a generalization).

 

[ponder]

Where the white will stick their parents in a home when they become a burden (ok, not all whites, maybe a bit of a generalization).

That's to expensive, we just off them (make it look like death from old age) and then get the insurance money as well. You're not to smart for a university student

 

[who.is.michael]

SA's biggest educational issues are that learning is based on Western languages, values and methods of teaching and this places local learners at a huge disadvantage and unfortunately our current Minister does not have the courage of conviction to changes this....

 

[battletoad]

You do make an important point about the culture aspect. I met a PhD student at Stellenbosch, doing his work in telecoms (at the media lab). He is from Zim, and he too has to support his parents. All the choices he makes he makes with respect to his parents. Luckily they aren't really poor, so they don't need the money so bad now, but one day he must take care of them. Where the white will stick their parents in a home when they become a burden (ok, not all whites, maybe a bit of a generalization).

Its awesome and all for people to care for their elders but more emphasis should be put on getting as much education as possible by age say 30 no matter the consequences. Thats why I'm thinking 10-20 years for the current crop of graduates to instill that firstly into their families and then hopefully in their communities as well. Also govt should then put their hands up to provide for students so that there's not too much strain back home. The current NSFAS scheme can be implemented better. It sucks studying yet at the same time knowing that your pursuit for knowledge is financially detrimental to your family.

That's to expensive, we just off them (make it look like death from old age) and then get the insurance money as well. You're not to smart for a university student

That's justs lolworthy

SA's biggest educational issues are that learning is based on Western languages, values and methods of teaching and this places local learners at a huge disadvantage and unfortunately our current Minister does not have the courage of conviction to changes this....

I've been tutoring 1st year maths at an english institution. Some of my students are afrikaans-speaking so i decided to have a couple of tutorials with them in afrikaans (i was at Stellenbosch once upon a time so i know exactly what they're going thru). I'd like to believe it helps them A classmate of mine is xhosa, so i flew by the idea of her instructing her mentee class in xhosa. Unfortunately there aren't any xhosa terms for mathematical concepts so that fell flat for her students.
Now look at places like Stellenbosch Uni and Potch (NWU these days?). A couple of guys sat down and decided to translate [insert field of study] to afrikaans (it probably also helped that dutch had a massive body to work from), including proper terminology and such. Thats why graduates of these places can go far in life because they understand exactly what they're studying due to instruction via their mother tongue. I don't see this happening for black languages. Perhaps its because the black graduates who got to where they are believe others can be taught via english as well, perhaps its just because it would be too much time and effort. But up until such a time that a couple of guys come together and try to organise something, the language-of-instruction issue will always be a hurdle.

 

[dlk001]

Thats why graduates of these places can go far in life because they understand exactly what they're studying due to instruction via their mother tongue. I don't see this happening for black languages. Perhaps its because the black graduates who got to where they are believe others can be taught via english as well, perhaps its just because it would be too much time and effort. But up until such a time that a couple of guys come together and try to organise something, the language-of-instruction issue will always be a hurdle.

I think the best way to overcome that hurdle is learning English from a young age. The language-of-instruction makes a huge difference indeed. Last December my family and siblings wanted to know what my Job is all about. Even though most of them understand basic english, they could not engage with me after explaining what I do.

I decided to teach them in Xhosa the concept of Factor of Safety and how it relates to engineering design. Even though there aren't any Xhosa terms for most engineering terms, I was amazed at the many questions they asked.

In Xhosa, words like Stress and Strain can be articulated in a way that has a physical scientific meaning. However, If I tried to converse in English, they struggled.

In summary, the experience emphasized the importance of language-of-instruction and the practical way to overcome this hurdle is learning English from a young age.

 

[Ricard]

If you don't make the country attractive to work in, then a high level of education will count for ZERO. People will get qualified and leave - which means the 'Students' are not coming back to 'Be the future teachers'

 

[Palimino]

...perhaps OBE was the killer (tough to blame teachers for all the mess).

OBE is not the killer. It’s crappy teaching (from ignorant teachers mostly in rural areas) and the ‘teachers’ (I use the term loosely) should definitely be blamed and held accountable for the mess.