Unsatisfactory, Broadly Speaking

Now we can see that the ISPA doesn't have the consumer interests at heart, for any of those wondering. ISPs haven't done jack for the consumer in standing up for their customers, they just take their share off the top. But, they can critcize ICASA (which are bloody slow and probably lack independence as we all know - but that's another problem). Only ones that I've seen take on Telkom (especially with Nov 1) are Dotco and WebAfrica.
 
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allyoucaneat said:
So, it is very sad that Ispa fails so badly in it's mission with the following:

...the ISP Association (Ispa), which represents most of SA's ISPs, agrees that the draft regulations are poor. They are "extremely broken, lacking in both technical and financial practicality", Ispa joint chairman Greg Massel told the FM in December.

I agree. ICASA has done far more than ISPA has ever done for consumers, and now they come in and criticize ICASA for making positive changes. Just think about it. Somewhere, someone is benefiting from not changing the ADSL landscape as we know it. I don't agree with the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality.

ISPA like I said earlier have their own interests at heart, they don't care 1 iota about the consumer. They've done nothing to alleviate the broadband "pain" in this country. They are becoming just like the "Proudly South African" branding with companies like Telkom screwing the SA public proudly.
 
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In essence, the regulations demand that fixed-line operators:

Scrap broadband line rentals;

Allow a minimum monthly bandwidth cap of 10 GB;

Allow customers to change the terms and conditions of existing contracts;

Provide a service within 14 days, in all circumstances; and

Guarantee minimum throughput speeds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Half of this was teken out of context, so methinks the article originated somewhere in the bowels of Telskum...

Allow a minimum monthly bandwidth cap of 10 GB; (because this is minimum international norm)

Allow customers to change the terms and conditions of existing contracts (Where a newer contract is cause due to regulation!)

Provide a service within 14 days, in all circumstances; and (Where infrastructure exists!)

Guarantee minimum throughput speeds. (Painfully low minimum service speed yet to be defined as true broadband)
 
Just look at ISPA's response to the ICASA proposed regulations. In that you can read between the lines that all they are trying to do is set-up the ADSL environment so that they also have the right to over charge the SA consumer. They certainly do not have the consumer in mind, they have profits in mind, and would just love to be allowed to apply Telkom's method of trade. Telkom is showing the Country how to make billions, and they want a piece of it, it's that simple. My guess would be that some of the major ISP's (already overcharging) are pushing for this behind the scene...
 
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pimal3 said:
I think the government should pay Telkom $85 million for its investment in the SAT3 cable (even though it was essentially paid for with our tax money) and then declare the cable a national asset. The government should then sell access to the cable in turn to whoever wishes to have access to it. The government could charge very reasonable rates and still make money off it and consumers will gain.

Yes, out of their share of Telkom's profits +-3,5 billion rand on shareholding + tax of +-3 billion rand a year. Remember Telkom's after tax profit is over R6 billion. Thinking about that, maybe it is not Telkom raping South Africa???

This is similar to book taxes that puts books out of the reach of poor people. Or Model C schools for a proper education or private hospitals for a proper healt care. If the masses cannot read and write, they will not know about how they are prevented from advancing and will thus always vote for the bloated party?
 
MFour said:
My guess would be that some of the major ISP's (already overcharging) are pushing for this behind the scene...

The force is strong in this one ...
 
Why doest MyADSl, Anti-Trust submit a mandate to ISPA and all other ISP's to decide which side of the line they are on? Telkom or Consumer?

AYCE/DotCo and WebAfrica we all know are Customer Centric and actually care about the customers... If we all boycott other ISP's for a month or 2 then that would deffinately have a positive impact.

We may not be able to boycott Telkom. But ISP's we can boycott. If they dont want to fight the fight... Then they can sit on the bench and go broke!
How many of you out there will have difficulty switching ISP's?? If you are with one of the ISP's that agree with Telkom??
 
No surprises from Telkom, but does anyone from the ISPA perhaps want to attempt to explain the reasoning behind their viewpoint?
 
Telkom says it is inappropriate that Icasa adopt an "uneven and fragmented approach" to broadband services by focusing only on ADSL. It says the authority is ignoring its wireless rivals MTN, Vodacom, Cell C, Sentech and Wireless Business Solutions.

I'm honestly not surprised by Telkom's response. Their particular brand of diplomacy obviously derives from the same source that defines it as "telling someone to go hades and to look forward to the trip by smiling insanely".

They are obviously ignoring the fact that the ICASA's draft proposal in question is in fact targeted at the fixed-line provision of ADSL in this country. This was in response to overwhelming complaints and evidence obtained by two colloquim (of which Telkom was allowed enough time for submissions to defend themselves). The wireless broadband providers will be dealt with in due course, should the need arise. This would probably not be necessary if wholesale provision of broadband is brought down to international standards.

I'm beginning to wonder if (as a country) we haven't substituted a political /social apartheid for a telecommunications one. As it stands, there are large portions of the country without equal access to telecommunications facilities (esp fixed-line) which is supposed to be the most basic form. In terms of access (affordability) to decent (ie. unshaped, non-port-prioritised, high cap, high speed) internet access, less than 0.5% (being extremely optimistic) of the country are catered for due to the high costs involved. If this isn't apartheid, then I don't know what is. Telkom in my opinion is far from Proudly South African. Catch up with the times Telkom ... the wind of change is coming, shape up or ship out. I'm sure without Telkom in the picture, there is no shortage of contenders to fill the gap - we just need the right legal structure in place to ensure the same pitfalls don't plague us ever again.
 
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Sneeky said:
No surprises from Telkom, but does anyone from the ISPA perhaps want to attempt to explain the reasoning behind their viewpoint?

Hi Sneeky,

I can certainly try to explain ISPA's position in more detail (beyond the explanations I've already posted, that ic mentioned). But I would encourage anyone who hasn't already read the ISPA submission to ICASA (available here) on the draft ADSL regulations to do so. Sneeky, is there something specific in that submission you'd like me to try to clarify?

MFour said:
Just look at ISPA's response to the ICASA proposed regulations. In that you can read between the lines that all they are trying to do is set-up the ADSL environment so that they also have the right to over charge the SA consumer. They certainly do not have the consumer in mind, they have profits in mind, and would just love to be allowed to apply Telkom's method of trade. Telkom is showing the Country how to make billions, and they want a piece of it, it's that simple. My guess would be that some of the major ISP's (already overcharging) are pushing for this behind the scene...

MFour, I'd love to know which lines that you were reading between to get that impression. (Really, I would, I'm quite concerned that you got that impression from the ISPA submission! :()

Let me (partly) agree with you though, that there are plenty of ISPs who would love to increase their profits. Heck, I suspect that all ISPs (excluding the non-profit ones) want to increase their profits. They are, after all, businesses, and businesses do generally try to make money. Or at least the successful businesses do...

But there is a big difference between the ISP sector and Telkom. Namely: competition. It is quite possible that, given the opportunity, some ISPs will attempt to milk consumers for every penny they can. But there are dozens, if not hundred, of competing ISPs out there, and if one of them starts charging an outrageous amount, they will soon find themselves without any customers, because their customers will have all moved their business to competing service providers. Competition means that consumers are able to vote with their wallets, which is a very good thing!

My view is that ICASA's draft regulations represent an honest attempt to improve things for the benefit of consumers. I don't doubt that at all. The intention behind the price regulation, increased traffic caps, etc. are indeed noble. And those are all things that ICASA should be investigating aggressively.

But unfortunately, the draft regulations are flawed to the point that it seems unlikely that they would achieve these admirable goals. A quick scan of the MyADSL forums leads me to believe that many forumites agree that the regulations are broken, either because they don't go far enough, or because they don't really make sense.

Here are just a few reasons that I think they are broken:

1. They seek to prevent ISPs from doing any port prioritisation

This seems like a good idea, right? Finally, I will be able to connect to a MMORPG server in the US and not be driven crazy by the lag times.

But it isn't. Here's why: It would stop any ISP from ever providing a port-priotitised service that consumers might want. For instance, there may be an enterprising ISP that wants to target the (significant) on-line gaming community and provide an Internet access service that gives gaming applications the highest possible priority. That seems to me as if it would be a useful service to some people. (I'd be interested in this :D.) But the draft regulations could actually stop that from being possible. No ISP would be permitted to provide such a service, even if there was customer demand for it. ADSL regulations should give consumers more options, not accidentally limit them!

ISPA's position is that no ISP should be permitted to do port prioritisation without the permission of the customer. In other words, ISPs shouldn't be able to shape gaming traffic out of existence, unless they have made it clear up-front that they are providing a service tweaked for only web browsing and mail.

2. The regulations seem to entrench a market model whereby everyone resells SAIX accounts.

Obviously, this isn't a problem for ISPs that currently resell SAIX accounts, so you are unlikely to hear them complaining about this issue. But there are an increasing number of ISP who are not reselling SAIX accounts, but are reselling an ADSL service provided by Internet Solutions, MTN NS or Verizon Business (previously known as UUNET). And if there are other ISPs competing with SAIX in the provision of wholesale ADSL accounts to resellers, that means there is more competition, which is ultimately good for consumers. (Unless you'd prefer to keep giving Telkom as much business as possible... ;)).

It would be a very bad thing indeed if ICASA unintentionally forced all of the ISPs trying to compete with SAIX to shut down. There is a real danger that unless the ADSL regulations are amended to make it clear that there are alternatives to SAIX, these competitors might not be able to continue providing services. So I have to ask: Does anybody really want to see ADSL regulations that (accidentally) give Telkom more rights, and their competitors less?

I know I don't!

3. Guarantee minimum throughput speeds

Again, on the surface, this looks like a pretty good idea. But when you look at the detail in the draft regulations, ICASA has tried to do this in a way that just doesn't make any sense. Take a look at clause 8(vi): "shall determine [...] at the guaranteed maximum downstream data rate in what time shall the ADSL deliver a 3MB file".

What does that actually mean? A 3MB file downloaded from where? A software patch downloaded from an international site? A video file from a local pirate movie server (okay, a really small video file)? Research data from a hospital's medical database? Everyone here understands that files download at different speeds depending on where on the Internet you download them from. How did ICASA manage to miss that fact when drafting these regulations?

As it stands, this clause just doesn't mean what ICASA intended it to mean.


I could continue, but I'm sure most of you have already skipped down to the next post, so I'll wind up. To summarise: ISPA's position is that ICASA should definitely be trying to address the problems in the ADSL market. Clearly, ICASA has a critical role to play in ensuring that consumers get reasonably-priced ADSL services.

However, ISPA's position is also that the draft regulations won't achieve this goal at all. With all the best intentions in the world, the fact remains that the draft regulations are seriously broken. ICASA desparately needs to do some more work on them, and urgently. Solid, well-draft ADSL regulations will be good for ISPs and for consumers. Poorly drafted, flawed ADSL regulations won't be good for anyone, except possibly Telkom.
 
Ant,

my problem is when ISPA agrees with the beast and doesn't mention anything about the regulations being a step in the right direction, or mention solutions to the problems they have with the regulations. You must realize the SA public has taken a lot of #@% from Telkom and any steps to make a change to what Telkom is doing will be welcomed. In the end it's about how much the consumer will save (especially comparing it with global broadband providers).

When a consumer reads an article like this, that's not what they want to hear that their ISPs(ISPA) are backing Telkom and showing no resistance to the beast.
 
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Peter7 said:
my problem is when ISPA agrees with the beast and doesn't mention anything about the regulations being a step in the right direction, or mention solutions to the problems they have with the regulations.

When a consumer reads an article like this, that's not what they want to hear that their ISPs(ISPA) are backing Telkom and showing no resistance to the beast.

I hear you! The author of the article that sparked this discussion took some valid quotes from ISPA about how broken the draft regulations are -- quotes they originally printed in a December article, mind you -- and combined them with an analysis of Telkom's submission, which has only just been made public. This leaves the reader with the unfortunate impression that ISPA agrees with Telkom's views on the ADSL regulations, which is very far from the truth.

Technically, I suppose that ISPA and Telkom (and apparently many forumites!) do agree on one thing. Namely that there are some real problems with the draft regulations. But that's about the limit of any agreement!

To address your point about there being no mention of the regulations being a step in the right direction, or solutions to the problems, if you read the ISPA submission, you'll see the following text in the conclusion section:

"Although clearly well meaning, ISPA is of the view that the proposed ADSL regulations are fundamentally flawed. ISPA believes that ICASA should focus its attention on regulations that promote active competition in the provision of ADSL (and other broadband services) to consumers, rather than attempting to micro-manage the details of one particular model of ADSL delivery in which Telkom retains its dominant position.

Specifically, ISPA suggests that two different sets of ADSL regulations are really required:

1. Regulations dealing with the provision and pricing of ADSL access circuits by PSTS licensees (and other broadband licensees) to consumers.

2. Regulations governing the relationship between Telkom (and other licensees) and Internet service providers. In particular, these regulations need to address the pricing of services to competing Internet access providers, the provision of appropriate service level guarantees to ISPs and the means by which ISPs can connect to the ADSL infrastructure."

I realise that those are pretty broad suggestions, but I think they represent a fairer summary of ISPA's position than the quotes in the press article.
 
Hi Ant
the ISP Association (Ispa), which represents most of SA's ISPs, agrees that the draft regulations are poor. They are "extremely broken, lacking in both technical and financial practicality",
Thx for the reply, I will do as suggested and read-up on your previous posts.

Just on port prioritization, this to me is just a nifty way for the existing monopoly to make even more money from a substandard service that is already criminally expensive.
Until we have internet connectivity that at least resembles cost models in this universe, port prioritisation should not be allowed at all.
Selling port prioritised services under the auspices of them being focused on the end users actual needs and requirements (even if they are cheaper) is noble and good marketing but it detracts attention from the main fact that the base price is already way overpriced.
I can agree that there is a place for it, just not in the current environment though. (jmho)

Your other points have merit and I'm sure we are all hoping that the ISPA gets stuck in and assists ICASA with drawing up these well overdue regulations.

Will go through the old posts as time permits and for what its worth, top marks for entering into discussions on this forum. Thx.
 
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WoW Ant, thanks for the detailed reply.

Yes I do agree that the draft regulations are left wanting, and there are a lot of very valid and good points in ISPA's submission. However when I look at the general trend of so-called competition in SA, and I hear things like don't do away with port shaping (call it what you want ;) ) give customers a choice, then the next thing that pops into my mind is: Ah so they are trying to find ways/excuses to charge more, disguising it as "consumer choice". So the "cheap/affordable" offering would then be on the shaped package (as it is now) and the gamer/downloader will have to get the "premium" (and probably way more expensive) option, again as it is now. This defeats the purpose of having broadband, and we are back to the "always-on dial-up" discussion. Why not just have unshaped and be done with it?

If I look at the point made on page 12 of ISPA's submission: "Traffic to a webcache server." It starts to look a bit suspect to me. Why would you want to class traffic (whether it is receiving data intrnationally or not) to a local server, as international traffic? This is possibly where my technical knowledge lets me down, but this seems to me like a way to stop a "work-around" the international traffic capping policy. So effectively people making use of local webcache, proxy servers, or vpn solutions would be "charged" for international traffic, or such a service would not be allowed, as it's against "regulations".

Like I said, maybe my lack of knowledge of ALL the technicallities are letting me down, but I'm not reading "viva the consumer" in these lines. Sure ISP's have to make money, and I'm sure they do. Now what happens if LLU is one day put into practice and the industry is deregulated? Do the ISP's take over from Telkom with exuberant charges, backed by the ICASA regulations? Sure the consumer has choices, because there is competition in the market. Much like the cost of mobile telecoms was "driven down" by competition in the market?
 
I think the key issue here is that there are a range of customers using or wanting to use ADSL. They key problem with port prioritisation, 10G caps and the like is that it makes ADSL the preserve of the rich and screw the rest.

Many home users using ADSL for e-mail and limited browsing could get buy with a 1G cap and port prioritisation - in fact would be very happy with those limitations IF THE PRICE GOES DOWN. Make them buy all the bells and whistels for 5 or 10 times the price at present and they will hate the regulations.

The key is to let competition determine what services are appropriate.

Many would be happy to buy an ADSL account with all the limitations @ a total cost similar to dial-up!
 
mike@ said:
Many home users using ADSL for e-mail and limited browsing could get buy with a 1G cap and port prioritisation - in fact would be very happy with those limitations IF THE PRICE GOES DOWN. Make them buy all the bells and whistels for 5 or 10 times the price at present and they will hate the regulations.
Mike ADSL is already a luxury of the more fortunate by a long shot.
The point is that it should not be 5 or 10 times the price for unshaped access, in fact the base price should arguably be 5 times less than what it already is.
The key is to let competition determine what services are appropriate.
be a gent and let our illustrious minister in on this not so secret secret.
When this gun is fired she seems to move better than that matrix chap.
 
ic said:
There are valid uses for shaped, but those are specialised uses - the way it should be is that unshaped could cost a fraction of the price of shaped, and that shaped should only be used in specialised ISP packages where for example an ISP provides a specialised account that gives priority to say gaming, or VoIP or whatever - over and above other protocols & ports, and then prices those specialised packages accordingly, but by default we should be getting unshaped for a normal ISP account - unfortunately Telkodemonopolies does the shaping and ISPs have no real control over that...

Forgive my ignorance, but would unshaped not give you the same result? Letting the consumer choose when, where and how they want to do whatever it is they want to do, instead of subscribing to a specialised shaped package. It is my understanding that if you have an unshaped account, your latency/throughput/ping would be the same for all services, i.e gaming, voip, downloading, etc. (of course location of the server would influence this). So why then would you pay more for a service that is optomised for, lets say gaming, and other services will be negatively affected?

Don't know, maybe Monday afternoons are just no good for me, but I don't get it.:o
 
Thanks ic, yes I never thought of the contention ratios, and you have a very valid point there. I now get what you were saying. :o

Oi just does not seem that there is a way for us, the consumer, to win here. :mad:
 
Ant_Brooks said:
1. They seek to prevent ISPs from doing any port prioritisation

This seems like a good idea, right? Finally, I will be able to connect to a MMORPG server in the US and not be driven crazy by the lag times.

But it isn't. Here's why: It would stop any ISP from ever providing a port-priotitised service that consumers might want. For instance, there may be an enterprising ISP that wants to target the (significant) on-line gaming community and provide an Internet access service that gives gaming applications the highest possible priority. That seems to me as if it would be a useful service to some people. (I'd be interested in this :D.) But the draft regulations could actually stop that from being possible. No ISP would be permitted to provide such a service, even if there was customer demand for it. ADSL regulations should give consumers more options, not accidentally limit them!

ISPA's position is that no ISP should be permitted to do port prioritisation without the permission of the customer. In other words, ISPs shouldn't be able to shape gaming traffic out of existence, unless they have made it clear up-front that they are providing a service tweaked for only web browsing and mail.

Hogwash. What you are trying to set up here is me the consumer having to have two or more accounts if I want to use all of the "capabilities" the internet offers. I for one dont use my adsl exclusively for one thing so why would I buy an account that browse and one that plays games and one that receives HDTV. Broadbrand is broadbrand and I dont know many people that plays BF2 while surfing so to have two accounts to accomplish this at the same time would be pure exploitation. I want maximum troughput in whichever task I am currently busy with. If I do want to run two internet tasks simultaniously the limit should only be my line speed. You can either let the response times balance themselves out or use some software locally to prioritise your tasks. Who gives you the ISP the right to decide when and how fast I can accomplish any given task on my equipment. You have been listening to what Telkom spews about port prioritisation too long.
[/QUOTE]
Ant_Brooks said:
2. The regulations seem to entrench a market model whereby everyone resells SAIX accounts.

Obviously, this isn't a problem for ISPs that currently resell SAIX accounts, so you are unlikely to hear them complaining about this issue. But there are an increasing number of ISP who are not reselling SAIX accounts, but are reselling an ADSL service provided by Internet Solutions, MTN NS or Verizon Business (previously known as UUNET). And if there are other ISPs competing with SAIX in the provision of wholesale ADSL accounts to resellers, that means there is more competition, which is ultimately good for consumers. (Unless you'd prefer to keep giving Telkom as much business as possible... ;)).

It would be a very bad thing indeed if ICASA unintentionally forced all of the ISPs trying to compete with SAIX to shut down. There is a real danger that unless the ADSL regulations are amended to make it clear that there are alternatives to SAIX, these competitors might not be able to continue providing services. So I have to ask: Does anybody really want to see ADSL regulations that (accidentally) give Telkom more rights, and their competitors less?

I know I don't!

Agreed we dont want that but realistically until there is true competition for landing rights and bandwidth access to all on the sat3 cable we have to force SAIX to provide wholesale accounts at reasonable prices. Telkominternet must then be forced to purchase accounts at the same price. I didn't see this in the regulations anyway so it is a mute point

Ant_Brooks said:
3. Guarantee minimum throughput speeds

Again, on the surface, this looks like a pretty good idea. But when you look at the detail in the draft regulations, ICASA has tried to do this in a way that just doesn't make any sense. Take a look at clause 8(vi): "shall determine [...] at the guaranteed maximum downstream data rate in what time shall the ADSL deliver a 3MB file".

What does that actually mean? A 3MB file downloaded from where? A software patch downloaded from an international site? A video file from a local pirate movie server (okay, a really small video file)? Research data from a hospital's medical database? Everyone here understands that files download at different speeds depending on where on the Internet you download them from. How did ICASA manage to miss that fact when drafting these regulations?

As it stands, this clause just doesn't mean what ICASA intended it to mean.

Ok so on the one hand you complain about the regulations being too specific and on the other hand you complain about the regulations not being specific enough. Rome was not built in one day or one set of regulations. Agree that this is not the holy grail of regulations but only a small step. Implement them and then we can work from there. The ISP's and Telkom contend every statement because the longer the status quo remains in place the longer the consumer suffers and the longer they make huge profits. And before you say that ISP's dont make money let me not call you a liar. As you have stated any business is in it to make money and if there was no money to be made in being an ISP we wont have any.
 
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