US Election 2020

[Unhappy1]

Yes, and people who get rich in a free market are rich because they have provided value to other human beings. Why should they not have the benefit of that?

Who said they shouldnt?

No, he just wants to put a gun to people's head because the "rich need to pay their fair share".

So abiding by the laws of the country is putting a gun to peoples head ..... RIGHT.

 

[ShaunSA]

It is actually. Eliminating all forms of taxation is probably the most radical idea I've heard on this forum.

Considering the number of do-gooders in the world only too willing to chip in with their own money it will work like a bomb

Or are you saying you won't support the poor if you're not taxed?

 

[konfab]

So abiding by the laws of the country is putting a gun to peoples head ..... RIGHT.

'statist

Nothing wrong with Slavery then since it was the law AM I RITE

 

[cerebus]

Considering the number of do-gooders in the world only too willing to chip in with their own money it will work like a bomb

Or are you saying you won't support the poor if you're not taxed?

Sounds like heaven on earth:

20 Million Americans Have Crowdfunded to Pay for Medical Bills, Most Fail

Around 20 million Americans have tried to raise money through crowdfunding websites to pay off their or someone else’s medical bills, a new survey out

gizmodo.com

20 Million Americans Have Crowdfunded to Pay for Medical Bills, Most Fail

According to the survey, some 8 million Americans have tried to crowdfund for their own medical expenses, while 12 million have started a campaign for someone else. An estimated 50 million Americans have donated to these campaigns. Forty-six percent of donors said they had given to friends, 35 percent to strangers, and 24 percent to relatives.

“As annual out-of-pocket costs continue to rise, more Americans are struggling to pay their medical bills, and millions are turning to their social networks and crowdfunding sites to fund medical treatments and pay medical bills,” said Mollie Hertel, senior research scientist at NORC, in a statement released by NORC. “Although about a quarter of Americans report having sponsored or donated to a campaign, this share is likely to increase in the face of rising premiums and out-of-pocket costs.”

The survey doesn’t tell us how often these campaigns succeeded, but other research has suggested that few do.

The most popular site for medical crowdfunding is GoFundMe, which allows people to keep any amount they raise. A 2017 study of 200 health-related campaigns on GoFundMe found that the vast majority (90 percent) had failed to meet their goal over a six-month span. Another study in 2019 of cancer-related GoFundMe campaigns found that people only raised, on average, a quarter of their goal.

 

[BBSA]

Have the Dems always ridiculed wealth?

 

[konfab]

Oh you must mean taxation, sorry I thought you meant human rights.

Property rights are human rights, in fact along with free speech and self defence they are the core of all rights.

 

[cerebus]

Property rights are human rights, in fact along with free speech and self defence they are the core of all rights.

I had no idea I was dealing with a group of radical anti-taxers.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

You couldn't find an actual quote of him railing against 'capitalist classes' so you resorted to citing the Wikipedia entry on Democratic Socialism? Still strawmanning.

You just need to look at his belief system. It's also strange he gets so much support from the Democratic Socialists of America (although Sanders isn't himself a member) who really do want to abolish capitalism.

 

[cerebus]

You just need to look at his belief system. It's also strange he gets so much support from the Democratic Socialists of America (although Sanders isn't himself a member) who really do want to abolish capitalism.

Ohh his 'belief system'. You mean as in, his stated beliefs? Like where he allies his form of socialism with FDR and the New Deal?

Sanders goes full FDR in defense of democratic socialism

Bernie Sanders urged a break from the mainstream during a major campaign speech Wednesday.

www.politico.com

Here's my take on it: Republicans have been smearing Democrats as socialists for so long that the word has lost all meaning. Why not just embrace the f*** out of it, just to trigger right-wingers? It doesn't matter how moderate your policies actually are - Obama, Clinton, JFK - all were labelled as socialists. The term has been so overused and defanged that nobody is scared of it any more. You've only got yourself to blame.

 

[Unhappy1]

'statist

Nothing wrong with Slavery then since it was the law AM I RITE

Damn, who knew Trump and the Republicans were running a slavery ring

 

[AlmightyBender]

So today and since the start of these threads there has been so so so much boring straw man at labels. Here is my attempt at a humorous explanation of the truth.



I doubt that this will get through to anybody calling Bernie a communist but it was fun to make.

 

[konfab]

I had no idea I was dealing with a group of radical anti-taxers.

I am not a radical anti-taxer.

I do think the state needs to exist, and it needs funds in order to do that. Flat taxes (meaning everyone pays a certain % of their income) are such taxes that benefit and burden everyone equally. And this isn't really incompatible with your dreams of having public healthcare in the US (although God-forbid why you would want Donald Trump and his administration in charge of it). Mauritius manages to have fairly extensive healthcare coverage for everyone despite having a 15% flat tax.

 

[konfab]

So today and since the start of these threads there has been so so so much boring straw man at labels. Here is my attempt at a humorous explanation of the truth.

View attachment 787805

I doubt that this will get through to anybody calling Bernie a communist but it was fun to make.

Wut?
How is the state owning essential public goods not central planning?

 

[cerebus]

I am not a radical anti-taxer. I do think the state needs to exist, and it needs funds in order to do that.

Then why are you equating taxation with the violation of human rights?

You are the one defending the principle that it is OK to violate someone's rights in order to benefit a collective.

 

[Unhappy1]

I am not a radical anti-taxer.

I do think the state needs to exist, and it needs funds in order to do that. Flat taxes (meaning everyone pays a certain % of their income) are such taxes that benefit and burden everyone equally. And this isn't really incompatible with your dreams of having public healthcare in the US (although God-forbid why you would want Donald Trump and his administration in charge of it). Mauritius manages to have fairly extensive healthcare coverage for everyone despite having a 15% flat tax.

Disgusting, /spits . How can you suggest the government puts a gun to peoples heads and makes them pay this, they provided value to other human beings.

 

[konfab]

Then why are you equating taxation with the violation of human rights?

Because progressive taxation isn't applied equally to everyone. One law rule for some, one law for others.

Flat taxation in effect violates everyone's rights at the same rate as they benefit from it.
If a country's free speech laws only protected the free speech rights of rich people, those laws wouldn't be protecting human rights.

 

[konfab]

Disgusting, /spits . How can you suggest the government puts a gun to peoples heads and makes them pay this, they provided value to other human beings.

Since everyone gets equal access to the service, they pay the same percentage of their income to get it. It doesn't target any particular group of people.

 

[cerebus]

Because progressive taxation isn't applied equally to everyone. One law rule for some, one law for others.

Flat taxation in effect violates everyone's rights at the same rate as they benefit from it.
If a country's free speech laws only protected the free speech rights of rich people, those laws wouldn't be protecting human rights.

You're making a false distinction now. Human rights are human rights. What if we had a flat rate of 80% tax across the board?

 

[Speedster]

This post is dedicated to all those of the "Bernie isn't a communist, he's a socialist" choir.

Let's have a look at the names of some well known "socialist" states, past and present:

• Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (ruled by Communist Party of the Soviet Union)
• People's Republic of China (ruled by Communist Party of China)
• Republic of Cuba (ruled by Communist Party of Cuba)
• Socialist Republic of Romania (ruled by Romanian Communist Party)
• Democratic People's Republic of Korea (Constitution: The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people)
• Socialist Republic of Vietnam (ruled by Communist Party of Vietnam)
• Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (ruled by Communist Party of Czechoslovakia)
• German Democratic Republic (ruled by Socialist Unity Party of Germany)
• Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (ruled by Communist Party of the Soviet Union)
• Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (ruled by League of Communists of Yugoslavia)
• Third Reich (ruled by National Socialist German Workers' Party)
• Iraqi Republic pre-2005 (Constitution: Its [the country's] basic objective is the realization of one Arab State and the build-up of the socialist system)
• Egypt pre-2007 (Constitution: The Arab Republic of Egypt is a democratic, socialist state based on the alliance of the working forces of the people)
• Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya pre-2011 (Constitution: The aim of the state is the realization of socialism through the application of social justice which forbids any form of exploitation)
• Syrian Arab Republic (Constitution: The leading party in the society and the state is the Socialist Arab Ba'ath Party. It leads a patriotic and progressive front seeking to unify the resources of the people's masses and place them at the service of the Arab nation's goals

I know some clever people will try to tell us there are nuanced differences, the reality is communism and socialism have always gone hand in hand. The one is a political system, the other an economic system. If Bernie's views are so different from the history (and associated fruit) of socialism he might want to consider a different description of his views. And before some of you get all stupid on this welfare, care for the poor, social justice etc are not socialism. Socialism is a distinct philosophy that everything belongs to everyone (look it up in any dictionary) and communism is then the method of governing this collective ownership.

 

[Gnarls]

Weren't there people in this thread telling anyone who didn't post anything critical of Trump that they should just own supporting Trump? Oh the irony is delicious.